RB: Community vs. Guild?

[Lurker Wyrm]

Hehe. The guys who says he's not going to log complains about not wanting to sign on to see an empty roster
Anyway, that just prove my point. When RBGW goes 6 feet under, it's not because of its people, it's because the game doesn't offer enough anymore. You do want to play with us, not the game.

KoP

I get what you're saying. Really, I do. But I don't think you're quite understanding what it is that I'm trying to get across. And it's probably my fault for not articulating myself properly.

For starters, me sitting around and seeing an empty roster is due to the times I typically sign on, or had been signing on. The time when I'm actually looking for something to do to kill time, which is around 3-5pm EST. Unfortunately, with Moo and Arctic gone, this is a very dead time for the guild roster and I know there will probably be at least 1 other person signed on at around 9pm EST (oh, wait, it's EDT right now.... whatever) but I'm usually watching TV around that time or am too busy staring at winamp and watching the spectrum analyzer. In any case, that still doesn't change the fact that it's far easier to reach me over an IM program. My AIM is listed in my profile and if you want my MSN just send me a PM as I'd rather not put an email address in a public place for bots to get a hold of, even though the email address is nothing but spam anyways.

I'm not suggesting that the community is dead or that we archive the RBGW section and toast its fond memories with a glass of champagne. What I am suggesting, and what the point of all this was supposed to be, is that the guild Realms Beyond, as in the in-game code that makes up a roster, guild hall, guild cape, guild tag, all of that electronic stuff that exists only in the game, that that is hurting the community. Think about it, whenever the discussion comes up to change the cape or hall it's nothing but bickering and flared emotions. All we do as a guild is argue, and it's hurting the community. I'm so tired of all this crap about leading, alliances, guild halls, promoting the RB guild as something it's not, everything. I just want to write my stories and share some laughs and maybe some serious moments with the community. But I can't do that. There are things happening now that I don't like and so I speak up about them, knowing that I'm going to get dragged into yet another argument, all for the sake of a bunch of lines of code that won't mean anything in a few years, if even that long. That's why I suggested disbanding the Guild Wars guild Realms Beyond [RB]. Not because the community is losing interest in the game or because it's not a game worth playing anymore, but because the in-game system is hurting the community.

[Miss Arctic Wind]

watch out wyrm everybody knows that if you speak up with a different opinion you get accused for being pushy and not trustworthy anymore and in the end pushed out of the guild :P

[KingOfPain]

the in-game system is hurting the community.

I know what you are saying, but I am not sure if it's only an instrument rather than the cultprit. There's no quick solution to it, at least I don't have one.

Real time communication out of game would do some good, an IRC channel might be something worth looking at...

KoP

[Hawkmoon]

I'm still not sure what I think about this issue, but I'll weigh in with a few thoughts.

Wyrm has suggested possibly disbanding the guild. What would be the consequences of that?
1. We'd all either join other guilds, or remain guildless. Whichever option we chose, we'd have to add each other to our Friends lists in order to keep in touch in-game. Nothing wrong with using the Friends list, it's even easier to use than the friends lists in Diablo 2, and we made do with those. We would instantly lose track of anyone in the guild that we didn't add to our Friends list - is that a desirable outcome? I have to be honest - there's only a few folks from RB, or any other guild for that matter, that I play with on anything like a regular basis. So a large proportion of the guild roster would effectively disappear for me. Would that be a desirable, or undesirable outcome? On the whole, I'd say undesirable - I might not game with them all the time, but there's always the potential to start with new RBers!
2. We'd lose the convenient guild chat channel. Perhaps we could make up for this with an out-of-game alternative like IRC or AIM, but that requires running GW in windowed mode. I like the full-screen option! Vent might be another option, but I don't sign on unless we're running a team event - my headphones just aren't comfortable enough for me to wear them without good reason. Plus it makes conversation with my husband or sons a bit awkward!
3. We'd lose the guild hall as a convenient meeting place to gather in advance of doing a mission or whatever, as well as all the merchant-type NPCs. Not to mention that GvG would be relegated entirely to acting as guests for other guilds.
4. On the plus side, no more bickering about the guild hall, the cape, or where we "as a guild" should be going, or what we should be doing. It's actually rather like converging on the Norn ideal - as Jora says, each Norn will decide for him/herself whether or not to help the cause, or do much of anything.

Is the guild system the culprit in the conflicts that have arisen? In some senses, yes, because any time you get a fairly large group of people together, they are going to express differences of opinion. Some members want more PvP focus, some want entirely PvE, several at once are guaranteed to want to dictate what "we" ought to do, and of course they're wanting to go in different directions. Is this really a problem of the guild system? Not necessarily. I think it's more a problem of the RB community - we have been so laid-back and inclusive, we try to give a home to everyone. Maybe that's not a good idea. Maybe our desire to accommodate everyone has led to these conflicts arising. Maybe we'd be better served by having an Amazon Basin type system, where we'd split up into several smaller guilds (hopefully under one Alliance, but not necessarily) based on primary interest. One guild might be devoted to PvP. One might be devoted to role-playing. And so on and so on. Would that be the answer? I don't really know - but it's worth considering. Wyrm commented that it was ridiculous to have a mission statement for the Alliance when we don't have a mission statement for the guild. I'd be hard pressed to come up with a mission statement that could encompass all of RB's interests, honestly. So maybe we ought to think about smaller guilds with defined mission statements. I'm not saying that I think that we ought to do this - but it's worth talking about. Other thoughts - is it a problem that the guild has gotten as large as it has? I don't know most of the people on the roster, and I'm sure many of us feel the same. Was it a mistake to invite people who don't also hang out on these forums? We've complained before about general guild apathy - we could make it a requirement for members to maintain a presence here so that the guild would be more representative of the community. That would mean the guild would likely get a whole lot smaller. I don't think I'm ready to advocate this solution, however - as appealing as the idea of the Guild of Hawkmoon's Little Friends [HLF] is, I don't think I want to ditch potential gaming partners quite yet. And that wouldn't solve the problem of the rather strong personality clashes we've had - a couple of members here can go at each others' throats with or without a large number of spectators! (not pointing fingers at anyone in particular)

At any rate, I will stop rambling. We have several options: 1) disband the guild entirely and lose the conveniences and in-game support system it makes possible, 2) reduce the size of the guild or split into smaller, streamlined versions of the guild, or 3) keep the guild as it is and Stop Fighting, dammit! Is there a way that the conflicts can be defused? Rotate guild halls on a regular basis so everyone feels that they get a chance to "live" where they like? Same with the cape, if that's really an issue? Rotate the guild leadership, so that we all have an equal chance at being ridiculed for our decisions?

All I know is that whenever I game with any of you, I have a great time, and I wouldn't want to lose that for anything. Even when WarBlade keeps me up waaaaaaay past my bedtime! I don't want to lose the RB community, and at least in my mind, that means the guild as well. I try to let conflicts roll off my back - I've gotten really, seriously pissed off at times, but never enough to ragequit. As Seijin points out, it's just a game - we ought to be flexible and "live in the good," to steal a line from The Sopranos.

Okay, now I'm really done. Thoughts, anyone?

[WarBlade]

All I know is that whenever I game with any of you, I have a great time, and I wouldn't want to lose that for anything. Even when WarBlade keeps me up waaaaaaay past my bedtime!

You know you love it.

[Zed-F]

Zed-F said the same thing before and now he's gone, with no one taking his place. How much longer until you're gone?

I'm gone from Guild Wars, for the most part. That doesn't mean I'm gone from the community. Perhaps when HGL comes out, you'll see more of me. (Withholding judgement for now, we shall see.) Or if folks start nudists back up again, I'd probably reappear in GW. Otherwise, I'm still active in MOO and in the D2 druids variant. My interest is mostly in non-RB games at the moment, but inevitably my interest will change, and I always keep an eye out here to see what might tickle my fancy.

[Lurker Wyrm]

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to this, but I was mostly unavailable from when you posted this until now and in the little bits of time I had to actually sign on and post I didn't have enough time to read everything with the attention it deserves.

Anyways, it seems I'm completely outvoted on the whole disband thing, so I'll just drop that entirely.

Maybe our desire to accommodate everyone has led to these conflicts arising.

just quoting that to add that I agree. Thinking abstractly, we're like a glass of water that's been poured out onto the counter: we don't have anything holding us together so we're spread out pretty thin.

Maybe we'd be better served by having an Amazon Basin type system, where we'd split up into several smaller guilds (hopefully under one Alliance, but not necessarily) based on primary interest. One guild might be devoted to PvP. One might be devoted to role-playing.

I brought the idea of a seperate PvP based RB guild a looooooooong time ago. At the time, the only people interested in PvP were me an SF. I'm willing to re-entertain the idea if others are. The big problem to that though, is how would we split up? We've got over 90 people in the guild now, and I know that there are some people that are mixed between PvP and PvE, i.e. they primarily play PvE but are interested in doing casual PvP. Would it be smart to mix casual PvPers into a guild of people that want to be competative?

Other thoughts - is it a problem that the guild has gotten as large as it has?

A large portion of the roster is inactive. Is that any more of a problem?

I don't know most of the people on the roster, and I'm sure many of us feel the same. Was it a mistake to invite people who don't also hang out on these forums?

You know, I think I'm going to have to say yes. A lot of people in the guild just sort of go stagnant and inactive after being in the guild for a few weeks and not really participating. I think it's great that we have the site and forums, but if people aren't going to use them then they're going to wind up being left out of a lot of what we do. I've noticed with a lot of people that once they do start getting involved and participating on the forums they become a lot more active in game as well.

One other thing I'd like to bring up which you mentioned briefly is the leader spot. People consistently say that our leader spot is just there to push buttons, but at the same time people have refused it because they don't want the responsibility. Anyone else see the contradictions? I'm not sure a rotating GL is the best option since there are a lot of people in the guild we just don't really know and wouldn't want to wind up screwing ourselves over accidently.

I do, however, think that it's time for a new GL. KoP has stated rather openly that he's lost almost all of his interest in GW and is looking more at Mythos and HG:L to occupy his gaming time, so it's time for the position to get passed on. I nominate Hawkmoon. Really, if he's wanting to do other things, then his other responsibilities (i.e. web site stuff) should get passed on as well (preferably to someone that knows what html is), but that's another topic of discussion all together.

[WarBlade]

Really, if he's wanting to do other things, then his other responsibilities (i.e. web site stuff) should get passed on as well (preferably to someone that knows what html is), but that's another topic of discussion all together.

Dude! The code on the RB pages is evil! It was spat out by some ancient version of Dreamweaver (predating all the useful ones) and looks amost as vile as anything MicroShaft Frontphage could vomit onto the 'Net. Who'd be dumb enough to take that on???

[Sciros]

Hahah. Well, I know we all like Hawkmoon ^^

Anyway there's an Alliance meeting on Saturday so maybe you can let others know your intentions there, as I'd say this is quite relevant to the Alliance as a whole. (And almost nobody on Arch bar myself, Uca, and Magister visit these forums, but that's another issue...)

[KingOfPain]

so it's time for the position to get passed on. I nominate Hawkmoon.

Dude, you didn't have to make it look like a hostile takover, it could have started an unnecessary guild war, if...

I would only be too happy if Hawkmoon would take the GL position as we (Hawkmoon and I) have talked about many many moons ago. Just remember RB > RBGW and you can do no wrong

KoP