(November 17th, 2012, 23:17)Kuro Wrote: Given the lurker thread...does anybody agree with my assessment on the Furs?
As a tile to work I would barely prefer the camped furs to a river grass cottage:
Base tile yield of riverside grass hill fur (1/1/2) is about equal to a riverside grassland (2/0/1). Cottage I estimate as an improvement worth approximately 2.5 commerce, so just 0.5c worse than the camp which is worth 3c. FIN bonus is a wash since it applies to both.
More important are the required tech (hunting might be out of the way, but could also lead conveniently into AH as the first two techs; I'm not sure), and the fact that the furs are +1 happy.
Hunting -> AH -> Mining -> BW hardly loses any time to AH -> Mining -> BW or Mining -> BW -> AH because of the discount + immediete commerce(You get the 5 commerce furs out much faster than you research Pottery here I believe). You should be able to go Hunting -> AH either when the Worker finishes or when it farms the Wheat.
(November 17th, 2012, 23:17)Kuro Wrote: Given the lurker thread...does anybody agree with my assessment on the Furs?
As a tile to work I would barely prefer the camped furs to a river grass cottage:
Base tile yield of riverside grass hill fur (1/1/2) is about equal to a riverside grassland (2/0/1). Cottage I estimate as an improvement worth approximately 2.5 commerce, so just 0.5c worse than the camp which is worth 3c. FIN bonus is a wash since it applies to both.
More important are the required tech (hunting might be out of the way, but could also lead conveniently into AH as the first two techs; I'm not sure), and the fact that the furs are +1 happy.
Hunting -> AH -> Mining -> BW hardly loses any time to AH -> Mining -> BW or Mining -> BW -> AH because of the discount + immediete commerce(You get the 5 commerce furs out much faster than you research Pottery here I believe). You should be able to go Hunting -> AH either when the Worker finishes or when it farms the Wheat.
Is a 1/1/5 tile (with plus 1 happy) that much better than a 1/3/3 tile, however? In most early cases, I'd rather work the furs mined.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(November 17th, 2012, 23:17)Kuro Wrote: Given the lurker thread...does anybody agree with my assessment on the Furs?
As a tile to work I would barely prefer the camped furs to a river grass cottage:
Base tile yield of riverside grass hill fur (1/1/2) is about equal to a riverside grassland (2/0/1). Cottage I estimate as an improvement worth approximately 2.5 commerce, so just 0.5c worse than the camp which is worth 3c. FIN bonus is a wash since it applies to both.
More important are the required tech (hunting might be out of the way, but could also lead conveniently into AH as the first two techs; I'm not sure), and the fact that the furs are +1 happy.
Hunting -> AH -> Mining -> BW hardly loses any time to AH -> Mining -> BW or Mining -> BW -> AH because of the discount + immediete commerce(You get the 5 commerce furs out much faster than you research Pottery here I believe). You should be able to go Hunting -> AH either when the Worker finishes or when it farms the Wheat.
Is a 1/1/5 tile (with plus 1 happy) that much better than a 1/3/3 tile, however? In most early cases, I'd rather work the furs mined.
Hammers can be easily replicated with the whip. They have other hills that can be mined if they want the production, which isn't as important this early anyway. +1 happiness means more whips or another worker, which means the camped Furs can become a 1/3/1(Working riverside normal mine for example) anyway from the extra citizen. Even if you're going to turn it into a hammer city, early on it's not worth mining it at all IMO.
So I guess you are just advocating to camp it for the happiness and not work it much? A 1/1/x tile, even if it provides a very nice amount of commerce, is not conductive to fast whipping cycles. I can't remember the math, but I swear I've seen multiple posts claiming that 1/3/x tiles are actually more efficient than slavery in many situations. You also have to take into account that even if you then tech AH with the 20% bonus, if you don't start with hunting, you are losing 20 base beakers and delaying 20 others a few turns in order to avoid losing 40 beakers far down the road, which could actually delay the sheep (or pigs tile if you were lucky enough to see it). I am not convinced that you are necessarily wrong, but to my mathless gut, it seems less effective to camp the fur.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(November 21st, 2012, 00:42)Merovech Wrote: Forum ate my post, I think:
So I guess you are just advocating to camp it for the happiness and not work it much? A 1/1/x tile, even if it provides a very nice amount of commerce, is not conductive to fast whipping cycles. I can't remember the math, but I swear I've seen multiple posts claiming that 1/3/x tiles are actually more efficient than slavery in many situations. You also have to take into account that even if you then tech AH with the 20% bonus, if you don't start with hunting, you are losing 20 base beakers and delaying 20 others a few turns in order to avoid losing 40 beakers far down the road, which could actually delay the sheep (or pigs tile if you were lucky enough to see it). I am not convinced that you are necessarily wrong, but to my mathless gut, it seems less effective to camp the fur.
Hunting shouldn't delay AH in any meaningful way because he should be able to get AH for the Sheep around the time his Worker is done with the Wheat and thus not lose any Worker turns. If you need to run a 3 hammer tile for an exact whipping number, mine a Grassland hill and work it for that turn. The Furs tile regains the cost of Hunting in around 7 turns of working, except it can be put towards another tech. I would have to have the save file to run exact numbers to see if any Worker turns would be lost, though.
They're also going to want Hunting anyway for Spearmen: One of their opponents is Mongolia, after all. Willem might not be conductive to rushing, but Mongolia's UU/UB are totally based on it and their starting techs aren't useful for much else(Hunting/Wheel gives fast track to AH + Wheel for Chariots/Pottery). If you wanted their starting techs and not to rush with Keshiks, why not the Khmer or the Ethiopians or something if you wanted Hunting?
In general, I'd prefer 1/1/6 to 1/3/1. You get a higher yield and to me, early game commerce is better than early game hammers, unless you want a Worker pump or something(In which case, it should be your second city really). It'd also make up for not getting BW with your first few techs by letting you tech it a lot faster. It also doesn't actually delay your growth to Size 4 as long as you get a +6 food surplus(Which their capital would have w/ Sheep + Wheat on Grassland): Taking 1 food due to it being a 1 food tile and you grow to Size 4 in the same amount of time. What are you whipping early game that's a 3-pop whip? 1/3/x tiles are only more efficient if you get are only more effective if you can get enough hammers to build faster then your food can grow, which you'd prefer in your second city.
(November 28th, 2012, 09:37)Azza Wrote: There'd better be some convenient horses to my north, or I'll be mad. How can I do a crazy suicidal rush if I don't have my horsies?!
Literally the only tile 3 away from your capital that you haven't seen yet, yes there is.
Old Harry made a remark in his thread about tile discrepancies; I made minor variations to everyone's land, so that everything isn't 100% identical, though it should all still be balanced.
Uh, yeah. 1/0/3 tiles are the worst. I can see going library before courthouse, though that's more iffy, since he does have a fair amount of commerce from this city, even if he is running 30% science (haven't checked in a while, is he doing that for something on purpose, or has he not been running binary?). I don't see why the monastery is there, however.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
![[Image: Screen%20shot%202013-02-18%20at%205.56.31%20PM.png]](https://dl.dropbox.com/s/hnoxtgbmxrsvyt8/Screen%20shot%202013-02-18%20at%205.56.31%20PM.png)
...I would have whipped a lighthouse and courthouse already.