WW20: Legend of the Undercity

[pindicator]

Since you went through all the trouble of waking me up you must really like to test. I like it too. Who else likes testing?

(Okay, I better go OOC so I'm clear in my reads.)

Novice
Seems town so far. I believe his early zakalwe vote was a joke, especially since that was my reasoning for voting zakalwe last game Novice also has seemed the most energetic about going after people and getting them to clarify points.

Bigger
More active this game. Yay, glad to see that Still wish he'd play more like he did a few games back when we'd lynch him mistakenly, but his posts here feel a LOT less scummy than day 1 of last game. So rest assured Bigger, I won't be vig shooting you night 1

Lewwyn
Unsure of him so far. His attacking flug seems right. But we're back to quiet day 1 lewwyn again, after he had a good day 1 last game.

Ryan
I'm trying to find anything besides roleplay from Ryan. That looks scummy to me. Then as soon as someone votes him we get this:

Ryan please don't week to emulate tasubkes craziness.

Are you honestly going to do what you did last game with saying I copy people ? You are really starting to annoy me with this . We are not going through this bull shit every game .

I haven't seen you do any testing yet this game. Do you not love to test, Ryan?

Flug_Auto

BrickAstrley, Lewwyn, Novice and/or Pindicator are the enemies of the Empress's crown. Trust me, I know this kind, been once myself.

This is a bad post. I need to see an reasoning behind the names you put forward here or you get my vote, newbie or not.
But worse IMO is the response you gave when you were first called on it:

I don't like the lack of reasoning, nor the "Maybe we all are nice guys..." quote. flug_auto, would you like to explain your suspicions?

What's your reason for not liking the "Maybe we all are nice guys..." quote?

To me this is dodging the question of asking for your reasoning, but grabbing onto the easier-to-counter part of the sentence that you did respond to. A lot of people are asking you for clarification and we haven't heard any response yet. You need to clarify this flug.

Zakalwe & Q - can you both explain why you think the case on flug is weak? Zak, especially you. This appears a lot like what thestick did in WW19 (18?). And you nailed him for that day 1. How is this different?

Zakalwe
I don't like his explanation he gave when confronted by Serdoa about knowing what he hunts. I didn't see it as a joke vote when he made it, and I suspect this could be a blind leap by wolf-zak into trying to sound confident but slipping and making a mistake. My PM makes no mention of who we're hunting either -- an odd choice by uberfish, to not put a story motivation into us voting to kill one of the group -- and you confidently knew that you were.

zakalwe I think for now. How well he answers my question about flug will go a long way.

Fake Edit: Gazglum, you seem to think flug is a wolf, but yet you attack the person who's probably been after flug the most. Distancing? And this reasoning about "What info is there to share?" is bad, bad, bad. You want people to share their thoughts. That's how we find the bad guys. And I don't like your thoughts. If zak answers well enough to satisfy my "testing" then I think I know who my next test subject will be.

Pindicator is obviously counting down, which is either
1) A role-related countdown to something that he has a special ability for or
2) Just roleplay, and it's been too long since I've played Portal to remember it.

However, at this point there do seem to be more actual actions going on than roleplay, and it's being included in that last post with helpful questioning, so he's not avoiding participation. I'm slightly curious to see what it doesn, but I don't want a time bomb going off on me either.

Most impressive.
Please note that any appearance of danger is merely a device to enhance your testing experience.
(Back in character for that one )


6

[Lewwyn]

For me the issue is what do I do about Flug? His "no lynch" vote put him on my radar. I didn't intend to crusade against him. But the pressure got to him and every subsequent post has been scummy. I know he's new to the game and I know it's "cruel" to push to lynch a guy first day, but out of everyone I've read so far he's been the scummiest. I haven't been as vocal because I haven't really needed to. I am reading everything and evaluating, but I don't see any reason to switch my vote off of the person I think is scummiest.

[Ichabod]

I think the computer chick (Pindicator) post about Gazglum to be very good. Gazglum post was bad, since he accused flug_auto but voted Gaius Marius. But Pindicator accused Gazglum with a good reasoning and attacked Zakalwe with a seemingly not very sure one...

So, should I vote for Gazglum or Pindicator? What do you think?

[Lewwyn]

I think the computer chick (Pindicator) post about Gazglum to be very good. Gazglum post was bad, since he accused flug_auto but voted Gaius Marius. But Pindicator accused Gazglum with a good reasoning and attacked Zakalwe with a seemingly not very sure one...

So, should I vote for Gazglum or Pindicator? What do you think?

I think Pindi was voting Zak first, saw Gaz's thing and simply chose to put pressure on the person he wanted answers from the most. He specifically says that its "testing" and Gaz would be his next target. So I don't know what you're doing here Ichabod? Why are you trying to make it seem like Pindi has done something he hasn't since he specifically stated if Zak answered questions he'd go after Gaz? I don't like this post Ichabod.

[Gazglum]

I don’t know if Flug is a wolf or not – I think that he’s playing badly and that makes it hard to know. I think he could well be a wolf, and if (for example) he doesn't give a measured response sometime in the rest of this day then I will switch my vote to him.

But I also think that, wolf or not, there are other wolves voting for him. If Flug is town, he makes a great distraction for us to lynch on Day 1, and I think some of the wolves will be encouraging it. If Flug is a wolf, then I think the rest of his team are going to be heading into panic mode about his play-style and will be looking to shut him up/distance themselves.

Fake Edit: Gazglum, you seem to think flug is a wolf, but yet you attack the person who's probably been after flug the most. Distancing? And this reasoning about "What info is there to share?" is bad, bad, bad. You want people to share their thoughts. That's how we find the bad guys. And I don't like your thoughts. If zak answers well enough to satisfy my "testing" then I think I know who my next test subject will be.

I make a distinction between thoughts and information. Yes, people should share their thoughts. But as far as I understand this game, none of us have any hard information to back up our hunches. So while I agree that Flug needs to give a measured response to the questions he’s getting, I don’t get what ‘information’ we’re expecting him to have? Unless of course he knows his fellow wolf team and in a panic has decided to bus the whole lot of them. In which case, God help the scum.

[Ichabod]

I think the computer chick (Pindicator) post about Gazglum to be very good. Gazglum post was bad, since he accused flug_auto but voted Gaius Marius. But Pindicator accused Gazglum with a good reasoning and attacked Zakalwe with a seemingly not very sure one...

So, should I vote for Gazglum or Pindicator? What do you think?

I think Pindi was voting Zak first, saw Gaz's thing and simply chose to put pressure on the person he wanted answers from the most. He specifically says that its "testing" and Gaz would be his next target. So I don't know what you're doing here Ichabod? Why are you trying to make it seem like Pindi has done something he hasn't since he specifically stated if Zak answered questions he'd go after Gaz? I don't like this post Ichabod.

Feel free to dislike my post, see if I care. I won't hang anyways, since I have no neck. It was obvious from the start that I'd suspect Gaspar, like it was obvious you would suspect me.

Regarding Pindicator: What's the point of voting than asking something. Pindicator post felt like "just say something and I'll unvote you, Zak". Vote Zak, seem like brave villager. Unvote him later or keep the useless vote until the end (if Zak hangs on day 1, I'll hang myself on day 2)... Blah... Besides, the only valid point Pindi made was based on flug_auto also being scum or something like that. Again, bad, bad...

You have the brains, Lew. Don't waste them looking at me, it's not worth it.

[BRickAstley]

Actually, what's nitpicky about the case on Flug?

Well, let's take a look at people that vote for him and their reasoning why.

Azza

flug_auto

"No lynch"ers are my personal pet peeve in mafia/ww.

Gaius

That being said, I find this:

BrickAstrley, Lewwyn, Novice and/or Pindicator are the enemies of the Empress's crown. Trust me, I know this kind, been once myself.

a bit scummy. I don't like the lack of reasoning, nor the "Maybe we all are nice guys..." quote. flug_auto, would you like to explain your suspicions?

...

Obviously you were joking, I get that, but I guess it somewhat relates to my other concern. I think that would have been a good time to share a lean or two you were getting from everybody else, but instead, it appeared to me like you were trying to avoid the topic. Basically, you've made a few posts and voted without explaining what you're thinking. I just wanted to know if you've picked up on anything suspicious so far.

Mattimeo

BrickAstrley, Lewwyn, Novice and/or Pindicator are the enemies of the Empress's crown. Trust me, I know this kind, been once myself.

This needs elaboration. What reasoning is behind your apparent certainty?
flug__auto 'til an adequate justification is forthcoming.

Lewwyn

Frank Fontaine, legitimate businessman. I'm gonna run this Undercity tits to toes. To do that somebody's gotta die.
Would you kindly vote for someone, flug_auto?

Novice

flug_auto, on the other hand, is indeed triggering lots of red flags.

flug_auto, have you played mafia/werewolf before? Let me tell you how this reads.
1. You start by voting for nobody to be lynched. You realize this will lead to a village loss? The only way we can kill wolves is by lynching them.
2. Revenge vote + following up with saying we're all nice guys, nobody's suspicious. By not sharing suspicions or even random votes you deny the other villagers information. Going back later and analyzing how various players voted and who they suspected is one of the key methods for catching scum.
3. After catching heat for your opening, you come back with 4 random names, and the reasoning "trust me". This reads like
a) Somebody explained the errors of your previous play to you (in the wolf thread)
b) You've already started distancing yourself from your scum buddies since you've caught some heat.

So, care to explain what's going on?

So, from this we have 1 vote rooted in his not voting, 2 votes from jokingness (me included), and 3 votes based on his one "scummiest" post.

BrickAstrley, Lewwyn, Novice and/or Pindicator are the enemies of the Empress's crown. Trust me, I know this kind, been once myself.

I will agree that this is a very scummy post. flug seems to be trying to throw out names because, what he later claims, in an attempt to try and see what this stirs up with the rest of people. However, this seems to scream almost too blatantly to actually be scum, because he's doing such a poor job of it. I mean, if he was scum, surely the others on the scum team would have told him he was doing something idotic, right? So there's one of 3 cases:

1) Village flug: is just trying to roleplay and generate conversation in a very horrible way, but is still relatively harmless.
2) Scum flug, is listening to teammates: He's sure getting some horrible advice, or trying to act like village by acting like scum. too WIFOM and for my suspicions.
3) Scum flug, isn't listening to teammates: Is doing his own thing and catching flak for it, even more awkwardly than my Nerve Stapling of WW15.

Of the three of these, I think it has to be 1 or 3. And whichever one of these that it is, it comes to the fact that flug doesn't know the proper type of play no matter what side he is on. I'm currently more willing to believe that he's just a misguided villager, and that one post of his was actually to try and generate talk, cause a scum trying to put that out there for any sort of personal gain is just ludicrous.

That said, my vote still remained on him and still does for the time being. Why? Because I do not see any of the other leading candidates to be a good one to lynch right now. I think the Meiz case was too related to some of the beginning role-play cuteness, and Gaspar's case (which I'll examine next), doesn't seem to have any good grounds for it on first glance. So even though I don't like the flug case the best, I do not see any better leads to try and jump onto at this time.

[BRickAstley]

For me the issue is what do I do about Flug? His "no lynch" vote put him on my radar. I didn't intend to crusade against him. But the pressure got to him and every subsequent post has been scummy. I know he's new to the game and I know it's "cruel" to push to lynch a guy first day, but out of everyone I've read so far he's been the scummiest. I haven't been as vocal because I haven't really needed to. I am reading everything and evaluating, but I don't see any reason to switch my vote off of the person I think is scummiest.

I feel very sympathetic to your reasoning here Lewwyn.

[BRickAstley]

Uber is big on fair. A scum Meiz could have asked uber - what is town told they're hunting and uber would answer that. The fact that Meiz puts it out there feels townish, the fact that he wanted to make sure he got credit for it seems scummy. All in all, null. My vote is on him because I sensed frustration/panic in his reaction and its way too early for a talented player like Meiz to feel that way. Bottom line, its the scummiest tell I've seen from an established player.

I felt the exchanges between flug and Gaius were pretty scummy on both ends as well but mindful of the Ryan and Q show from last game I decided to ignore it and look again later once we have more of a baseline for their actions.

Zak - I dunno what you want me to tell you. It was a half-assed post, I admit that. Got caught in the meta crossfire and engaged in it for no good reason. Do I know better? Of course. But I think the Gaspar knows everything meme is long dead. If anything, that should be a town tell for you - I'm far less likely to just spew nonsense in the thread when I'm scum.

See, I like this post. It looks like Gaspar is trying to give valuable feedback on the current cases. And the votes on him aren't really anything of substance anyways...

I think it would be quite fun to lynch Gaspar. Besides, the only good assassin is a dead assassin.

(Did you have more reasoning later Bigger? I'm not seeing it.)

Trying too hard. The one good, one bad thing is also nonsense, and we just went over that.

> use noose with Gaspar

I've been thinking. If we kill the guy who dies today by beheading him, I could get a body for myself. If that's the case, I'd prefer a pumped guy like Gaspar then the little fatty guy Zak. Besides, his vote for Meiz was too much "I need" than "I see".

Well, I for one would be happy with my vote back on Gaspar.

Do any of you have any sort of better reasoning for voting Gaspar that I'm missing?

[Mattimeo]

That said, my vote still remained on him and still does for the time being. Why? Because I do not see any of the other leading candidates to be a good one to lynch right now.

So your 'joke vote' is being converted into an actual vote? Should we all be jumping on your back now, or is that reserved for when Qgqqqqq or I do the same?