WW20: Legend of the Undercity

[Bigger]

Serdoa - thank you for the compliment, but I've been low-hanging fruit in quite a few games now.

[zakalwe]

Some good points, Serdoa, and a lot of nitpicking. No keyboard, so briefly:

I didn't like Gaius post, I didn't quote it because no keyboard. I thought it was scummy in context, and he really was just parroting others about Meiz, but it's not a major suspicion currently.

If all you want is answers, the vote usually isn't necessary. He did also say that he's scummy, though, so maybe I'll retract that bit.

Ichabod is playing too scummily to be scum. He's just having fun IMO.

Azza's post was bad because he said he would move his vote if not for X, where X was just some random accusation put forth in the meantime. Like I said, I don't think the comparison to thestick is very apt. I said he was a better lynch than Gaspar because I was moving my vote from him.

I like voting with people I think ate innocent. I don't need to, but I like it. It makes good sense. What's wrong with that.

[zakalwe]

Back later. Going out now.

[Bigger]

. The fact that bigger is following you guys espically Zak on every train that starts and immediately switching votes ? Isn't that exactly the opposite of what you told me bigger I just wrote A few posts up . Your are trying to blend and just follow everyone with your votes while providing 0 reasoning which I think is pretty wired . In the lurker thread you theory crafted and in the scum thingie you were gathering a ton of info about powers and who everyone is while you did nothing in the main thread . I don't think this matches your play style at all if you were town since I'd expect you to post something out of your thoughts and not confirming everyone and following them around .rp wise you got away with really softly with all *HEY* Bigger if there's a town seer please check Q to please me

If there's a huge fallacy in what I am saying please tell me

sure. but please LISTEN!
1. This is the first time I have engaged you at all this game(ok, now I vaguely remember pointing out one of uberfish's rules to you, but I don't see how the two situations are similar).
2. I started wagons on gaspar AND Ichabod already, thats hardly blending in. A few people followed me onto both, so they must have thought there was some validation in my vote.
3. I haven't followed Zak onto anything. In fact, he followed me onto Gaspar, not the other way around. I didn't switch to azza, I just mentioned that I suspected him as well. if he gets more traction than Ichabod, my current #1 suspect, I may switch.
4. Its day 1, give me a break for not having a smoking gun. There was a reason for both votes. For Ichabod, I quoted Lewwyns post, which was enough to convince me to vote for him even if it wasn't enough for Lewwyn. For Gaspar, there was a clear reason, even if I didn't spell it out at the time. I hinted at it later, and I don't really see any benefit to spelling it out more now.

[Gazglum]

I'll go with Gazglum. I don't understand why he picked specifically Gaius from the flug_auto voters, when other voters had no better reasons. His post indicates that he found Gaius's post more suspicious than others, which I don't get.

Well, I did admit that it was a bit of a shot in the dark. But I did, and do, think that the pile onto Flug was suspicious, and I wanted to put some pressure on those involved. Of those,

Frank Fontaine, legitimate businessman. I'm gonna run this Undercity tits to toes. To do that somebody's gotta die.

Would you kindly vote for someone, flug_auto?

Lewwyn gave the first vote, and clearly did it to push Flug out of hedging. I see nothing suspicious there.

Well that formatting went all screwy. Short of it when I was trying to figure out what the heck flug's character is, it revealed he's part of the conspiracy against the crown.

- Brick's was a roleplay joke vote, there wasn't much traction for Flug at the time.

flug_auto

"No lynch"ers are my personal pet peeve in mafia/ww.

Azza I thought could be wolfy, he was my second most suspicious in this list, but he still was only pushing Flug into equal lead and it's a reasonable statement to make.


Ryan voted Flug for a second, but unvoted him as soon as Flug changed his vote to Azza, which made it look genuinely like a prod to get Flug to get moving rather than a real attempt to lynch him.


Then we get to Gaius.

I don't agree with Meiz's claim that Gaspar and Mattimeo are more likely town than not, based on them not knowing who we are hunting. I simply read it as roleplay, which I don't think necessarily leans one way or the other. Additionally, I'm not quite sure what Meiz was really hoping to get out of novice, but I guess it did start conversation, which is what he wanted.

That being said, I find this:

flug_auto

"No lynch"ers are my personal pet peeve in mafia/ww.

Azza, I hope this will help to change your mind.

Who said there is any villains? Maybe we all are nice guys and there is no need to lynch nobody.

Its hard being a newbie wolf... I really don't want to lynch you first day, but you're so scummy.

BrickAstrley, Lewwyn, Novice and/or Pindicator are the enemies of the Empress's crown. Trust me, I know this kind, been once myself.

a bit scummy. I don't like the lack of reasoning, nor the "Maybe we all are nice guys..." quote. flug_auto, would you like to explain your suspicions?

Gaius made the fourth vote on Flug, pushing him into equal lead and by 4 votes you're starting to get into territory where someone could really hang. I remember Zak found this post a bit suspicious too, because Gaius was mainly recapping other peope, and i'll admit that that influenced me because Zak has a good reputation. But my suspicious were more raised by his post #140

As for flug, I thought (and still do) that he has been reluctant to post his thoughts. I believed that he needed the extra pressure to finally share some information.

The use of 'information', rather than saying share his suspicions or whatever was a little bit of a warning flag for me, becuase it felt like trying to get Flug to reveal his Secret Power or something, as what 'information' could he really have? But I'll admit this is partly me being pedantic with words, and clearly nobody else was worried by it.

Anyway, Novice was next

flug_auto

"No lynch"ers are my personal pet peeve in mafia/ww.

Azza, I hope this will help to change your mind.

Who said there is any villains? Maybe we all are nice guys and there is no need to lynch nobody.

Its hard being a newbie wolf... I really don't want to lynch you first day, but you're so scummy.

BrickAstrley, Lewwyn, Novice and/or Pindicator are the enemies of the Empress's crown. Trust me, I know this kind, been once myself.

flug_auto, have you played mafia/werewolf before? Let me tell you how this reads.
1. You start by voting for nobody to be lynched. You realize this will lead to a village loss? The only way we can kill wolves is by lynching them.
2. Revenge vote + following up with saying we're all nice guys, nobody's suspicious. By not sharing suspicions or even random votes you deny the other villagers information. Going back later and analyzing how various players voted and who they suspected is one of the key methods for catching scum.
3. After catching heat for your opening, you come back with 4 random names, and the reasoning "trust me". This reads like
a) Somebody explained the errors of your previous play to you (in the wolf thread)
b) You've already started distancing yourself from your scum buddies since you've caught some heat.

So, care to explain what's going on?

He's trying to engage with Flug, give him some advice for his play. Not Wolfy, because he's encouraging Flug to build a defence.

Finally mattimeo,

This needs elaboration. What reasoning is behind your apparent certainty?
flug__auto 'til an adequate justification is forthcoming.

But this post seemed a lot more casual than Gaius', and by this point (many hours of Flug silence...which is still ongoing...Bueller...Bueller?) I thought more justified.

So I guess it was not so much that Gauis idd anything different to the others, it was the just the way he said it. Like I said, I think that at least someone on this list is scummy, and I think it was reasonable to pick GaiusMarius as the most suspicious of the group. I think he's worth putting pressure on.

I'm for bed, and I'm not sure if I get up before lynch-deadline or not. I'll try to chime in again before then.

Oh, and lastly, before anyone else uses it against me: yes, Lucasarts made the Monkey Island games using the SCUMM engine.

[Azza]

Azza's post was bad because he said he would move his vote if not for X, where X was just some random accusation put forth in the meantime. Like I said, I don't think the comparison to thestick is very apt. I said he was a better lynch than Gaspar because I was moving my vote from him.

I voted for flug initially because he no lynch'd. I stayed on flug because his reaction seemed like a panicky scum reaction, trying to look village but not knowing how, similar to thestick's reaction in 18. What part of this is considered jumping on a random accusation?

[Gazglum]

Sorry, it took me ages to type that up and I just caught up with Serdoa's post.

Bad reasoning Gazglum. If we believe someone is a wolf and he is the strongest read we have, we lynch him. Postponing him to lynch someone else on whom we have a weaker read is just dumb. Not lynching someone we believe to be a wolf because we fear the other wolves more is just ... I have no words for this. It makes no sense.

Sure, I can see your point. I still think Flug could as easily be a bad villager as a wolf - actually, it felt more likely to me. I was hoping a better lead would come up - and I think Gaius could be it. But I was also assuming that Flug would respond...sometime. If he really can't come up with any answers to any questions put to him by deadline, then yeah, he probably deserves the noose.

[Jkaen]

Why? Please, explain that. I think he plays as scummy as possible for a veteran player right now. Testing the waters on lynches, not committing to anything, trying to stay on the good side of veteran players, deflecting... what else do you need on D1 to find someone scummy?

Oh, well, that answers my question. Sharing a suspicion by making an argument is scummy for you, even though the argument is ok, because you are not sure if I really felt this suspicion. Have you looked at Ichabods pindicator suspicion? I mean, there you can find a suspicion that really does not feel genuine AND with a bad argument. If you don't like my vote for Meiz, god must you HATE Ichabods try on pindicator...

I dont want to discourage putting cases together even at this stage, but your first statement doesnt seem to mesh with the second to me. How is accusing Pind being no commital and staying on the good side of vets?

Seems like you are desperately stretching to make a case

[Meiz]

Gaius made the fourth vote on Flug, pushing him into equal lead and by 4 votes you're starting to get into territory where someone could really hang. I remember Zak found this post a bit suspicious too, because Gaius was mainly recapping other peope, and i'll admit that that influenced me because Zak has a good reputation. But my suspicious were more raised by his post #140

As for flug, I thought (and still do) that he has been reluctant to post his thoughts. I believed that he needed the extra pressure to finally share some information.

The use of 'information', rather than saying share his suspicions or whatever was a little bit of a warning flag for me, becuase it felt like trying to get Flug to reveal his Secret Power or something, as what 'information' could he really have? But I'll admit this is partly me being pedantic with words, and clearly nobody else was worried by it.

<snip>

So I guess it was not so much that Gauis idd anything different to the others, it was the just the way he said it. Like I said, I think that at least someone on this list is scummy, and I think it was reasonable to pick GaiusMarius as the most suspicious of the group. I think he's worth putting pressure on.

That's the reason I'm voting for you. It's too nitpicky argument, IMO it's clear that the "more information" relates to his previous line of lack of posting thoughts. I don't see how you can make the connection that he is trying to lure out powers etc. I get a feeling you've had to forcibly add evidence behind your vote, and I think wolves are more pressured on making sure their vote is justified.

[Serdoa]

Some good points, Serdoa, and a lot of nitpicking.

I really can't hear that anymore. I was told the same last game AND the game before and both times I found wolves. And both times it was not nitpicking but just looking closer at stuff that was dismissed by the village and both times it got me ACTIVELY belittled by the wolves. Maybe it is time to stop dismissing my points all the time and start trying to understand it...

Ichabod is playing too scummily to be scum. He's just having fun IMO.

No, I don't accept that explanation zak. Look at what I quoted. That has nothing to do with having fun. He was absolutely serious about going for pindicator - till he backed off because Lewwyn called him on his bad vote without reasoning. His following of Jkaen might be having fun simply - his votes are not.

Actually I am having a hard time even responding to that because it is so unbelievable that you really try to dismiss the whole case I made on Ichabod by posting "He's just having fun.". Thats mind-boggling.

Azza's post was bad because he said he would move his vote if not for X, where X was just some random accusation put forth in the meantime. Like I said, I don't think the comparison to thestick is very apt. I said he was a better lynch than Gaspar because I was moving my vote from him.

Thats not true. He said he was considering moving away till others brought up how much this reminded on thestick (=reassuring him that this indeed can be wolf play). You make it instead sound now as if it was some random accusation - from your sentence it is not even clear that this accusation was actually about the target he voted for. And basically you say that Azzas post was bad because he decided not to move his vote away from someone on whom the case got strenghtend in the meantime. Yeah, that really is bad. How can he keep his vote on someone he - and several others - believe to be scum?

And if this was only because you don't like the thestick comparison, then you should actually question those who brought it up in the first place, shouldn't you?

I like voting with people I think ate innocent. I don't need to, but I like it. It makes good sense. What's wrong with that.

It is D1, you gave no reasons why this people should be considered innocent and lastly only one of the two players actually even had a slight village read on him. And that was really only a very slight read. And thats what wrong with it, you are just to quick to give out innocence and be ready to even move your vote because of it. You are not interested to actually hunt for wolves. Exactly like last game, only that this time you try to appear a little bit more active, but fail even more than last game because this way it becomes even more obvious that you do not hunt for real.