WW20: Legend of the Undercity

[Serdoa]

Why? Please, explain that. I think he plays as scummy as possible for a veteran player right now. Testing the waters on lynches, not committing to anything, trying to stay on the good side of veteran players, deflecting... what else do you need on D1 to find someone scummy?

Oh, well, that answers my question. Sharing a suspicion by making an argument is scummy for you, even though the argument is ok, because you are not sure if I really felt this suspicion. Have you looked at Ichabods pindicator suspicion? I mean, there you can find a suspicion that really does not feel genuine AND with a bad argument. If you don't like my vote for Meiz, god must you HATE Ichabods try on pindicator...

I dont want to discourage putting cases together even at this stage, but your first statement doesnt seem to mesh with the second to me. How is accusing Pind being no commital and staying on the good side of vets?

Seems like you are desperately stretching to make a case

1. You don't really believe you could discourage me, do you? I mean honestly Jkaen, thats so totally not you.

2. Because he didn't follow it up but backed off as soon as Lewwyn called him. Not because he agreed with anything weakening his case though, he clearly stated that he just backed off of pindi because no on shared his suspicion. How is that not non-committal? How is that not trying to appease to Lewwyn by backing off of a target as soon as he gets fire for it. I mean, have you read the thread Jkaen or are just posting this to defend Ichabod? Have you at least read my post on Ichabod himself or again, are you just here to defend him?

Quite honestly, when I read your post the first time, I thought you didn't wrote "I don't want to discourage putting cases together" as a general statement but that you shortened it and actually wanted to write "I don't want to discourage putting cases together on Ichabod".

Btw: I don't dismiss the possibility that you two have some link. But I don't see a reason to believe as of now that this link is actually beneficial to the village. If there is one it might, it might not.

[zakalwe]

I'll take another look at Ichabod, Serdoa. But you wrote a whole post directed at me and I think it's nitpicky. All of this "why aren't you questioning X about Y for not saying Z?" is extremely tiresome. I only have a limited amount of time here, and I throw things out as they occur to me. My gut read on Ichabod SO FAR is that he's innocent, and you'll just have to excuse me for saying it out loud.

"It is D1, you gave no reasons why this people should be considered innocent and lastly only one of the two players actually even had a slight village read on him."

What? According to which official list of reads is this? I said I THINK he is innocent, so therefore I would feel good about voting with him.

You're really sucking all the fun out of this game.

[Jkaen]

Why? Please, explain that. I think he plays as scummy as possible for a veteran player right now. Testing the waters on lynches, not committing to anything, trying to stay on the good side of veteran players, deflecting... what else do you need on D1 to find someone scummy?

Oh, well, that answers my question. Sharing a suspicion by making an argument is scummy for you, even though the argument is ok, because you are not sure if I really felt this suspicion. Have you looked at Ichabods pindicator suspicion? I mean, there you can find a suspicion that really does not feel genuine AND with a bad argument. If you don't like my vote for Meiz, god must you HATE Ichabods try on pindicator...

I dont want to discourage putting cases together even at this stage, but your first statement doesnt seem to mesh with the second to me. How is accusing Pind being no commital and staying on the good side of vets?

Seems like you are desperately stretching to make a case

1. You don't really believe you could discourage me, do you? I mean honestly Jkaen, thats so totally not you.

2. Because he didn't follow it up but backed off as soon as Lewwyn called him. Not because he agreed with anything weakening his case though, he clearly stated that he just backed off of pindi because no on shared his suspicion. How is that not non-committal? How is that not trying to appease to Lewwyn by backing off of a target as soon as he gets fire for it. I mean, have you read the thread Jkaen or are just posting this to defend Ichabod? Have you at least read my post on Ichabod himself or again, are you just here to defend him?

Quite honestly, when I read your post the first time, I thought you didn't wrote "I don't want to discourage putting cases together" as a general statement but that you shortened it and actually wanted to write "I don't want to discourage putting cases together on Ichabod".

Btw: I don't dismiss the possibility that you two have some link. But I don't see a reason to believe as of now that this link is actually beneficial to the village. If there is one it might, it might not.

Serdoa,

I actually meant what I said, maybe it wasn't needed with you what it meant to say long hand is:

I am going to disagree with what you have said here, but please dont let that discourage you because this type of approach is very helpful to the village and hence I encourage it.

As for have i read your post, you think i just quoted from it without reading it do you?

[zakalwe]

Azza's post was bad because he said he would move his vote if not for X, where X was just some random accusation put forth in the meantime. Like I said, I don't think the comparison to thestick is very apt. I said he was a better lynch than Gaspar because I was moving my vote from him.

Thats not true. He said he was considering moving away till others brought up how much this reminded on thestick (=reassuring him that this indeed can be wolf play). You make it instead sound now as if it was some random accusation - from your sentence it is not even clear that this accusation was actually about the target he voted for. And basically you say that Azzas post was bad because he decided not to move his vote away from someone on whom the case got strenghtend in the meantime. Yeah, that really is bad. How can he keep his vote on someone he - and several others - believe to be scum?

And if this was only because you don't like the thestick comparison, then you should actually question those who brought it up in the first place, shouldn't you?

I mean, let's look at this. You're just splitting hairs here. How is what I said not true? What you're saying is the exact same thing that I'M saying. Are you just disagreeing with the specific words I chose, or what? And why should I question those who brought up the thestick comparison, when it's the act of parroting that comparison that I find suspicious?

I'd been considering moving off flug up til I read this post.

Zakalwe & Q - can you both explain why you think the case on flug is weak? Zak, especially you. This appears a lot like what thestick did in WW19 (18?). And you nailed him for that day 1. How is this different?

It really is reminiscent of thestick's newbie wolf play. A suspicious enough first post to draw attention, and then a very scummy reaction to the attention he's getting. I'm pretty comfortable sticking with flug now.

Look again at this post. What Azza is really doing here (if Flug is innocent) is popping in to say he'll stay on Flug, but shifting a good deal of the blame for his mislynch onto Pindicator. Also, it's basically an appeal to authority. It feels very opportunistic to me, and that's why I said he picked up on a random accusation. Really, he's making an excuse for staying on Flug, not trying to push him further. As if he knows how it will actually end - in a mislynch.

(Now tone it down a few notches for how I actually feel about that post. But the above is a hyperbole to make my point.)

[Serdoa]

@Jkaen

I'm just not sure if you did read it thoroughly or if you would just skip most of it, just searching for something you can point out to weaken it to save Ichabod. That depends much on your bond with him and also of course the alignments involved. So that was basically my way to ask you if you are actually interested to discuss him as a suspect or if it makes no sense because you won't change your stance anyhow.

@zakalwe

If you are village and meant this honestly, I'm open to discuss this with you after the game. If you are scum and just try to make me feel guilty or influence the opinon of others about me - basically discrediting me on an emotional level - I have nothing to say to that, apart from that I am really sorry for you and that you have to resort back to such underhand methods. As I don't know right now which of those is the case, I'll simply only answer to the points about my actual points on you:

My issue is exactly what you yourself stated now again. You THINK he is innocent. And this thinking of course has to have reasons. I mean, you'll not just declare someone innocent if you haven't read something from him that makes you believe that. But you have nothing. Directly questioned you just state that you will go reread on him and that

"My gut read on Ichabod SO FAR is that he's innocent"

Fine. Again, why? I don't mind that you have just a feeling that he is innocent. But even that feeling has to be kindled by something. And that you can't even point at anything makes me wary. I know that it is sometimes hard to point at a specific point when one started to believe something. But I'm not asking for THAT one post that made you believe. But for something - and all you give me when I ask is that you feel he is having fun. That seems flimsy to me, at best, considering what he posted and that you use this as part of the reasoning to justify your vote.

[zakalwe]

I said I would review Ichabod and I haven't done so yet. But my impression so far has been that he's following his "having fun" innocent play style and not his "serious business" scum play style.

Can I ask what your opinion on Flug is, Serdoa? It looks a bit like you're being careful not to take a stance on him.

[Jkaen]

@Jkaen

I'm just not sure if you did read it thoroughly or if you would just skip most of it, just searching for something you can point out to weaken it to save Ichabod. That depends much on your bond with him and also of course the alignments involved. So that was basically my way to ask you if you are actually interested to discuss him as a suspect or if it makes no sense because you won't change your stance anyhow.

I am happy to discuss him as a suspect. But unless you find a smoking gun I will not be voting for him today due to the bond. Your words today could however sway me to change day 2 or 3 when there is more to go on against him

[uberfish]

vote count

flug_auto (5) - azza gaius lewwyn mattimeo novice
Bigger (3) - brick gaspar ryan
Ichabod (3) - bigger rowain serdoa
GaiusMarius (2) - gazglum q
Gazglum (2) - ichabod meiz
Lewwyn (2) - flug molach
Zakalwe (2) - jkaen pind
Azza (1) - zak
Gaspar (1) - tasunke

[Serdoa]

zak, in my own words: For me it seems that Azza gave a perfectly valid reason why he stays on flug, because he liked the argument brought forth by pindicator. I don't see the parroting you read into that. I also don't see how he tries to deflect responsibility for the lynch. It seems more for me like you know already that it will be a mislynch and try to set up the next target.

As for my own feelings about flug: I think he played pretty badly and he might be a wolf that panicked. But I do think we have better reads to go on that I believe have a higher probability of being a wolf. A lynch on flug is not much better than a random lynch without thinking. Due to him being new, he can have panicked, no matter his alignment. I can see why others vote for him but I can also see Biggers stance on those voters picking the low-hanging fruit. It is very easy to vote for him right now. In the end, if there was nothing better to go on, I would vote him too. But there is - Ichabod for example (and I agree that he is having fun zak - but that doesn't mean that he should get a free pass, and imo he is showing clear wolf signs that have nothing to do with having fun, for example that he is not hunting for wolves but just trying to appear active and appease to the village).

[Molach]

...must never drink.....wine....again

I am liking Serdoa and his effort atm. Seems a bit un-wolfy do commit so hard to color Ichabod black, too early (and out of the blue) to throw fellow wolf under the bus - and if Serdoa is a wolf and knows Ichabod to be innocent he is using up any goodwill thence for this game - better hope he does not end up needing Ichabods vote for anything down the road. So the Ichabod case is worth considering, "too scummy to be a wolf" "just having fun" - if this is so, if his fun is making him appear scummy it's not pro-village. Novice having fun "Havent seen village Zak yet" and Zak "I know what I'm hunting" is fun - once one gets the joke it's harmless.

Then about Gazglum. I thought he answered well why he picked Gaius of the flug-voters, so I'll consider Gaius a bit too. But there is little to go on, and new guy too.

Azza - mabye it's that hated avatar, but I'm suspicious about him too.

Mommy's home, gotta go.