WW20: Legend of the Undercity

[zakalwe]

Serdoa, I did read and consider your case against Ichabod. I just disagreed with it, and you called me scum for disagreeing with you. And that is not to say that I'm confident in Ichabod's innocence. But I really disagreed with your view that he was the best lynch.

When I said you were nitpicking I was mostly referring to the long post you dedicated to my play. I'm innocent, so I really don't feel bad about dismissing that post.

[Ichabod]

My defense and genreal comments:

Couple quick thoughts...

• Bigger, do you ever actually try in these games? You're trying to ride coattails of zak's flimsy but at least partly justified crusade against me. I especially don't like the post where you try to claim credit for being part of starting it when all you've actually contributed is a joke vote you haven't moved and your "me too" posts. I'm very sensitive to people trying to get in on or deflect credit before we know results, especially under no pressure. So here, have some pressure.
  

I like this line of thinking. What's your deal Bigger?

Hm... Brick voting for Bigger... Later Brick will follow Bigger on me... I want to see how this came to be...

Flug does resemble thestick in a ww16. I'm certainly not going to defend him. thestick, however, had a well established baseline, I know absolutely nothing about flug and I'm willing to give him a day to get his bearings - the "don't lynch" newbies isn't a pity thing, its for the village, to prevent mislynches of players we don't have a baseline on.

Plus, honestly, I hate the RB meta of always going after the low hanging fruit in the first few days, and I don't want to participate in that.

Couple quick thoughts...

• Bigger, do you ever actually try in these games? You're trying to ride coattails of zak's flimsy but at least partly justified crusade against me. I especially don't like the post where you try to claim credit for being part of starting it when all you've actually contributed is a joke vote you haven't moved and your "me too" posts. I'm very sensitive to people trying to get in on or deflect credit before we know results, especially under no pressure. So here, have some pressure.
  

I like this line of thinking. What's your deal Bigger?

You should have figured out by now why I was voting for Gaspar. Maybe you should reread my mason thread in ww16? My "joke votes" always have a purpose. I wasn't happy with the early reaction Gaspar gave and didn't want to lynch a newbie day 1 (plus I don't see the scum tells on Meiz), so I kept my vote there. Anyway, he's reaction of late is more convincing. I'm not going to make the same mistake I made in 16 and forget about him, but I can let it go for today.

Ichabod is acting just as scummy as Flug, and he's not a newbie.

Plus he's a bit of a creep. I'm a lady, sir!

Nice accusation there, Bigger! I'm acting scummy. Cool. I say I'm acting villagery. What's your retort?

Veredict: Bad case

How is Ichabod acting scummy?

Speaking of Ichabod

"Tattoos on my back? What do they say?"

Well, something I've not been crazy about is Ichabod's roleplay about copying 'the boss'' votes, or revenge voting if someone targets you. I do love Morte, and I'm enjoying Ichabod's rendition, but this also strikes me as a way Ichabod can later disclaim responsibility for his actions as partly roleplaying.

Let's review the situation. I voted for Gazglum just a bit before this post. Gazglum probably knows I'm a veteran player and a difficult lynch. I had one vote at the time, Bigger voted for me. So, what does Gazglum do? He throws a bit of suspicion at me, but doesn't vote. This is scum play, still not very confident scum play.

His argument is forced, of course. What does it matter if I follow Jkaen around? I don't see a problem.

This post made me start looking even more for Gazglum. I told myself: "if he's scum, he's going to vote for me at some point". I confess that I already knew about the following votes on me, since I read this in the morning. But it was clear: now that he had more company, wolf Gazglum would vote for me. It was a matter of time.

Here's the breakdown:

- Veteran player not very suspected attacks you.
- You don't vote for him, just throw suspicions.
- Other players join in.
- You suddenly decide that you want to vote.

Keep with me, it'll get worst, from what I can remember.

Stay awhile and listen to me rambling about some posts I don't really like:

Didn't realize I'd be putting him in the lead. I don't mind, but that wasn't my motivation. Just for the record.

Why would villager zak point out that he doesn't want to put someone he suspects into the lead?

Here's a question for everyone around. I think if Meiz is nice and Rowain is a baddie, Rowain would get pretty angry at the GM for giving villagers such an easy way to clear themselves. So someone should look at Rowain's vote against Meiz and analyse if it's an "angry-at-GM" revenge vote or just an "I-suspect-you" vote. I'd do it, but I'm a poor judge of character. I always judge all characters poor...


And of course, master calls:

Zakalwe

First this rouse has been used by scum in the past (example zak asked the GM a queston and used the fact that the GM announced that he has been asked for an attack on me. ) Which together with above make me really wonder aboput the alignement of you 2.
And second your vote on zak is anice classical distancing vote. reasons given =0. Not to mention that you were already voting for zak then (since post 48) but not 30 minutes later you had suddenly the epiphany to vote for Gaspar.

So current feeling: Ichabod

It was an obvious follow-Jkaen-joke-vote for anyone that already played Planescape: Torment and I especifically said that I was going to do that before. It was even a revote on Zakalwe, making everything more obvious. My gaspar vote was serious, but it was just to see what gaspar was going to do (and because his interactions with Meiz were a bit off to me).

I'll go with Azza. All things considered, I think he's a better day 1 lynch than Gaspar, based on what we've seen so far.

I think I could be convinced to switch to Azza, as well. I don't like the "my top two suspects are the two leading candidates" (meiz& flug) from him either. seems like a lazy scum comment - i.e. I want to be able to switch to either innocent, in case one of my scum buddies starts getting votes.

hmm, I'll have to think about it. Going to bed now, but I'll have time to catch up and cast a final vote 2-3 hours before deadline. Then - beer and football .

Bigger don't seem quite so sure about me here. I wonder where this willingness to vote for other player went after other people started voting for me. We'll see...

All those people voting for Meiz... It's a bit funny. Like if Meiz was going to get lynched on day 1. Yeah, right, deadline hour would get close by and people would let Meiz get lynched. Highly doubt it... This is just a way to condemn the poor sod who is near him in the lynch tally. i'm guessing flug_auto or GaiusMarius.

Still, Meiz lynch could give some nice information. I'm positive there's a baddie in his votes, because high profile baddies always like to start the days with "good" cases and Meiz's case is the "goodest" around. Someone should look at the Meiz voters and try to find the baddie. Problem is, if Meiz is indeed one of them, then everything blows up.

In gist you state "At least one Meiz voter is a wolf - though maybe he is the wolf in which case that would probably not be so." Thanks, that was extremely helpful. So many words for no content at all.

Here's a question for everyone around. I think if Meiz is nice and Rowain is a baddie, Rowain would get pretty angry at the GM for giving villagers such an easy way to clear themselves. So someone should look at Rowain's vote against Meiz and analyse if it's an "angry-at-GM" revenge vote or just an "I-suspect-you" vote. I'd do it, but I'm a poor judge of character. I always judge all characters poor...

Translation "I really don't want to start the train on Rowain, could someone else please do so?"...

I think the computer chick (Pindicator) post about Gazglum to be very good. Gazglum post was bad, since he accused flug_auto but voted Gaius Marius. But Pindicator accused Gazglum with a good reasoning and attacked Zakalwe with a seemingly not very sure one...

So, should I vote for Gazglum or Pindicator? What do you think?

I think Pindi was voting Zak first, saw Gaz's thing and simply chose to put pressure on the person he wanted answers from the most. He specifically says that its "testing" and Gaz would be his next target. So I don't know what you're doing here Ichabod? Why are you trying to make it seem like Pindi has done something he hasn't since he specifically stated if Zak answered questions he'd go after Gaz? I don't like this post Ichabod.

Feel free to dislike my post, see if I care. I won't hang anyways, since I have no neck. It was obvious from the start that I'd suspect Gaspar, like it was obvious you would suspect me.

Interesting response Ichabod. No answer at all, quite dodgy indeed.

Regarding Pindicator: What's the point of voting than asking something. Pindicator post felt like "just say something and I'll unvote you, Zak". Vote Zak, seem like brave villager. Unvote him later or keep the useless vote until the end (if Zak hangs on day 1, I'll hang myself on day 2)... Blah... Besides, the only valid point Pindi made was based on flug_auto also being scum or something like that. Again, bad, bad...

"or something like that" - you really give me not the feeling that you are actually interested to look into the players you yourself brought up. It is the second time that I feel you test the waters for a lynch and if you get fire for it, you just step back.

Ok, then, if everyone thinks Pindicator is clean (people don't seem to remember that the cake is a lie), I'll go for Gazglum.

Again, no reason, no nothing. And backing off without reason either. You got questioned by Lewwyn, thats it. But you construe that into "if everyone thinks"... scummy, extremely scummy.

Ichabod

Sorry, Serdoa, but all this shows to me is that I wasn't careful with my tongue during this game. This is partly roleplay, partly due to very low time commitment to the game and partly because I don't care that much about what i'm going to say when playing village. I spent the whole AitP game counting my words, I want some rest now.

My reason for the Gazglum vote was the reason that Pindicator gave in his post, that Gaz attacked flug_auto but voted for GaiusMarius.

I'll continue later.

[Rowain]

Nice post Ichabod claiming that you got only voted for by scum. Poor fellow. I'm really interested to hear what our 2 specialists(zak & novice) think about this post.
But

It was an obvious follow-Jkaen-joke-vote for anyone that already played Planescape: Torment and I especifically said that I was going to do that before. It was even a revote on Zakalwe, making everything more obvious. My gaspar vote was serious, but it was just to see what gaspar was going to do (and because his interactions with Meiz were a bit off to me).

is a nice way to dodge any single accusation in it. Oh my second zak-vote was a clear joke-vote. Absolutly obvious. And my Gaspar vote was serious also absolutly obvious of course. It is absolutly the task of the reader to decide which post is obviously a joke and which is serious.

But you completly dodge this part:

Here's a question for everyone around. I think if Meiz is nice and Rowain is a baddie, Rowain would get pretty angry at the GM for giving villagers such an easy way to clear themselves. So someone should look at Rowain's vote against Meiz and analyse if it's an "angry-at-GM" revenge vote or just an "I-suspect-you" vote. I'd do it, but I'm a poor judge of character. I always judge all characters poor...

First this rouse has been used by scum in the past (example zak asked the GM a queston and used the fact that the GM announced that he has been asked for an attack on me. ) Which together with above make me really wonder aboput the alignement of you 2.

Your part is the thing Serdoa later interpretes as:

Translation "I really don't want to start the train on Rowain, could someone else please do so?"...

What do you say to that? (And how do you read that zak and novice? Still dismissing that all? )

[novice]

Nice post Ichabod claiming that you got only voted for by scum. Poor fellow. I'm really interested to hear what our 2 specialists(zak & novice) think about this post.

I guess I'll answer then, Rowain, since you're asking me specifically.

I'll reserve judgement on the scumhunting part since Ichabod said he would continue his post. Preliminarily, I can agree with his choice of targets. (Bigger and Gazglum).

His defense points are very valid I think. I'm not going to parrot them on his behalf when he's defending perfectly adequately himself.

Here's a question for everyone around. I think if Meiz is nice and Rowain is a baddie, Rowain would get pretty angry at the GM for giving villagers such an easy way to clear themselves. So someone should look at Rowain's vote against Meiz and analyse if it's an "angry-at-GM" revenge vote or just an "I-suspect-you" vote. I'd do it, but I'm a poor judge of character. I always judge all characters poor...

Translation "I really don't want to start the train on Rowain, could someone else please do so?"...

What do you say to that? (And how do you read that zak and novice? Still dismissing that all? )

Again, since you ask specifically: I read Ichabod's post as "Here's a promising avenue of scumhunting, maybe someone with more time than me can look into it."

Now, a question for you Rowain. Do you feel Ichabod's latest post makes him look more scummy? If you do one of us is suffering from confirmation bias. It might be me of course.

------

OK, so let me reassess. I think the arguments that Ichabod defended against in that post are weak, so I like his defense. That doesn't mean Ichabod's innocent though, it just means the case on him is weak. Let's recap the case, since you and Serdoa refused to do so, preferring to hit us with walls of quotes instead of trying to actually convince people.

Ichabod's scum tells
* Post summarized by Serdoa as "At least one Meiz voter is a wolf - though maybe he is the wolf in which case that would probably not be so." I agree that this was an unhelpful post. Legitimate scum tell, although a weak tell.
* Roleplay/joke vote for Zakalwe, following JKaen. Scumminess depends on player personality. See below.
* Appealing for others to do scumhunting. One post where he asks someone to look into Meiz voters, one post where he asks people to examine Rowain's post for anger (which I later did). Null tell I think, I think it's reasonable for a villager with little time to do this.
* Backing off targets when he meets resistance. If true this is a big scum tell. I'm not sure I see it though. He backed off Pindicator and Serdoa criticized that, saying Ichabod interpreted Lewwyn's objections as "nobody agrees". While Lewwyn was the only one objecting to Ichabod's case, it is true AFAICT that nobody actively agreed with Ichabod's point. There was one other instance of backing off allegedly, what was that?
* Laziness. Here was Ichabod's case against Pindicator as discussed above:

Regarding Pindicator: What's the point of voting than asking something. Pindicator post felt like "just say something and I'll unvote you, Zak". Vote Zak, seem like brave villager. Unvote him later or keep the useless vote until the end (if Zak hangs on day 1, I'll hang myself on day 2)... Blah... Besides, the only valid point Pindi made was based on flug_auto also being scum or something like that. Again, bad, bad...

I actually think this a good point by Ichabod. Pindicator's post was weak - He basically DID say "Here Zak, I'll vote you for now but it means nothing". What Serdoa catches on to is this however:

"or something like that" - you really give me not the feeling that you are actually interested to look into the players you yourself brought up. It is the second time that I feel you test the waters for a lynch and if you get fire for it, you just step back.

I think you'll just have to accept that not everybody will spend as much time as you looking things up, Serdoa. Giving Ichabod heat for making a good point just because he doesn't look up all the details seems like a flawed approach to me.

Okay, so there are some weak scum tells on Ichabod and some null tells. So why do I think he's village, well my town tell on Ichabod is the one he pointed out himself:

Conclusion, I'm a good wolf. The only time I play is when I'm village. That's a fact.

I just don't think he would play as devil-may-care if he were scum. It's been used before about Ichabod, and has never been proven wrong.

In summary, I accept this explanation:

I wasn't careful with my tongue during this game. This is partly roleplay, partly due to very low time commitment to the game and partly because I don't care that much about what i'm going to say when playing village. I spent the whole AitP game counting my words, I want some rest now.

[Ichabod]

Nice post Ichabod claiming that you got only voted for by scum. Poor fellow. I'm really interested to hear what our 2 specialists(zak & novice) think about this post.
But

It was an obvious follow-Jkaen-joke-vote for anyone that already played Planescape: Torment and I especifically said that I was going to do that before. It was even a revote on Zakalwe, making everything more obvious. My gaspar vote was serious, but it was just to see what gaspar was going to do (and because his interactions with Meiz were a bit off to me).

is a nice way to dodge any single accusation in it. Oh my second zak-vote was a clear joke-vote. Absolutly obvious. And my Gaspar vote was serious also absolutly obvious of course. It is absolutly the task of the reader to decide which post is obviously a joke and which is serious.

But you completly dodge this part:

Here's a question for everyone around. I think if Meiz is nice and Rowain is a baddie, Rowain would get pretty angry at the GM for giving villagers such an easy way to clear themselves. So someone should look at Rowain's vote against Meiz and analyse if it's an "angry-at-GM" revenge vote or just an "I-suspect-you" vote. I'd do it, but I'm a poor judge of character. I always judge all characters poor...

First this rouse has been used by scum in the past (example zak asked the GM a queston and used the fact that the GM announced that he has been asked for an attack on me. ) Which together with above make me really wonder aboput the alignement of you 2.

Your part is the thing Serdoa later interpretes as:

Translation "I really don't want to start the train on Rowain, could someone else please do so?"...

What do you say to that? (And how do you read that zak and novice? Still dismissing that all? )

I don't think you are a wolf. I don't think Serdoa is a wolf. I think Bigger and Brick are suspicious. I think Gazglum is very suspicious.

Regarding my commentary about you, I asked a question and waited for the answers. No one agreed with my point of view and I backed off. Probably strange for some players here, but I listen to the opinion of others.

Serdoa's interpretation is ridiculous, in my opinion (sorry, but that's what I think). Why wouldn't I start the train in you if I was scum? Do you think I'm stupid? Please, I think I deserve a bit more consideration...

[Ichabod]

And just to add: I'll continue my defense later, going through the posts I missed (which are still several). After that, I'll probably answer any other questions. But after these answers, i'll limit myself to try and fund wolves. I won't bash my head against others for hours and days, like I did in WW? where I was the baner and got post-restricted (Lewwyn, Meiz, Gaspar wolves). Lynch me if you want, but I'll try to do something useful instead.

[zakalwe]

I agree with Novice.

Now what do you think of my case against Azza, Rowain? Why are you so DISMISSIVE? You scummy scum, you!!1!


> hide behind Dora

[Mattimeo]

> hide behind Dora

... you've been wanting to use that line all game, haven't you

[pindicator]

I think comparing Gazglum's argument http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid336538 and my voting zak while also suspecting flug & ichabod are two different things. Very much an oversimplification. Gazglum is wishy-washy back and forth on flug. I'm saying I suspect all three and wanted to vote zak to get some information out of him first. Gazglum was saying flug was innocent or maybe he was guilty, but people who were pushing him for information were suspicious for doing so.

[novice]

I think comparing Gazglum's argument http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid336538 and my voting zak while also suspecting flug & ichabod are two different things. Very much an oversimplification. Gazglum is wishy-washy back and forth on flug. I'm saying I suspect all three and wanted to vote zak to get some information out of him first. Gazglum was saying flug was innocent or maybe he was guilty, but people who were pushing him for information were suspicious for doing so.

I agree with that, but Ichabod's right that your post where you voted Zak felt like "say anything and I'll unvote you, Zak".