Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[Bigger]

Or say: that will be our last city in your direction, in accordance with our settling agreement.

yeah I like this. guilty of skimming novice's rewrite, I guess its good after all.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Still, though, this does not address the topic that is of greater importance long term, which is the border agreement. I want some kind of assurance from CivPlayers that they're not going to plop a city on that plains hill that will be difficult for us to dislodge without wasting tons of hammers. I'd settle for an answer here before getting trade routes if I had to choose one over the other.

Yeah I get that, but they totally ignored the border agreement thing the last two times I've asked about it. Not sure why this would be different. So this is an attempt to get them talking about what they want rather than us repeatedly telling them what we want, and them screwing around for a week again before giving us a generic "eh no thanks" answer.

I know you've tried, but I don't want to ignore it just because they apparently have decided to. We can make progress on multiple fronts, but we won't if we drop the issue they won't discuss. Much more delay, say a turn or two, and I'll want to put the message to them bluntly regarding the border: Settle closer at your peril.

[NobleHelium]

Ok guys, thoughts on this draft to CFC?

Caledorn,

Thanks again for directions, and I'm glad we were able to finally be a help to you in return. I think it's been a big boost for both of us. Let me know how things go once you meet CivPlayers. They may be a very small team, but they still seem to be doing quite well in this game.

As a courtesy, I wanted to inform you that we will be settling a new city near the oasis pretty soon. In accordance with our deal, we will not be settling past the oasis. Instead, we will settle south of it. This will be the last city we settle in this direction, so we of course will not contest any other locations you wish to settle in this region.

Thanks!
scooter - Team RB

I expect the main point up for debate is whether or not we offer them the stone up-front. Either way, I think sending both messages before the night is over is a necessity.

edit: novice's revision looks pretty good to me.

Why mention the deal? We haven't violated it. Just say we're settling a city south of the oasis and that will be our last city in their direction. Don't skirt the issue with "near the oasis", that reeks of a guilty conscience.

Agree with zak. We should not be feeling any guilt over this city plant.

[Lewwyn]

I literally laughed out loud when I read WPC's proposal.

About the CIvPlayers:

About the drafts to Civplayers, my god they are annoying. We have to cut the bull a bit here IMO. YOU ARE NOT BLUNT ENOUGH! Imagine you are talking to me. I read your drafts to them and I get hot under the collar. It feels patronizing, cloying and smarmy. That is not the way you want to deal with these guys.

"I hope I can understand your team's goals and aims a little better." Give me a fucking break. Let's not play stupid. Their goal i to win. They don't want to give us an advantage by giving us more trade routes. I wouldn't do it either. In fact I haven't in numerous games. Yes they want something in return. They want an advantage. Just ask them, "what do you want for OB?" They aren't stupid. They understand we're in the lead unlike WPC or Germans they aren't going to just bend the fuck over. Your language is diplomatic, distant and annoying. This message will only drive them further against us. I know if you sent that msg to me I'd say, "WTF you think I'm stupid?"

And honestly I get that the msg they sent us was similar, but A) it was shorter and B) I think they were poking fun at us too. Why can't we just be real with these guys?

All we need to tell them is:
What do you want for OB?
We don't want war.
If you settle any closer to us we will end the NAP.

Please stop trying to be nice to these guys. They don't want to be nice, friendly and cuddly.

[SevenSpirits]

The WPC proposal is adorable. But there are real downsides to accepting it. We should be attacking with knights or better so catapults are actually not so helpful to us. And meanwhile they will surely expect a big share of the German lands. In other words from a pure gameplay perspective we're probably better off if we don't work with them. But, from a diplomatic perspective this is obviously great (and other people have pointed this out). Just wanted to make sure someone mentions the downside.

Btw, I am in favor of NOT bringing to WPC's attention how far behind us in tech they will be by t150.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

I literally laughed out loud when I read WPC's proposal.

About the CIvPlayers:

About the drafts to Civplayers, my god they are annoying. We have to cut the bull a bit here IMO. YOU ARE NOT BLUNT ENOUGH! Imagine you are talking to me. I read your drafts to them and I get hot under the collar. It feels patronizing, cloying and smarmy. That is not the way you want to deal with these guys.

"I hope I can understand your team's goals and aims a little better." Give me a fucking break. Let's not play stupid. Their goal i to win. They don't want to give us an advantage by giving us more trade routes. I wouldn't do it either. In fact I haven't in numerous games. Yes they want something in return. They want an advantage. Just ask them, "what do you want for OB?" They aren't stupid. They understand we're in the lead unlike WPC or Germans they aren't going to just bend the fuck over. Your language is diplomatic, distant and annoying. This message will only drive them further against us. I know if you sent that msg to me I'd say, "WTF you think I'm stupid?"

And honestly I get that the msg they sent us was similar, but A) it was shorter and B) I think they were poking fun at us too. Why can't we just be real with these guys?

All we need to tell them is:
What do you want for OB?
We don't want war.
If you settle any closer to us we will end the NAP.

Please stop trying to be nice to these guys. They don't want to be nice, friendly and cuddly.

Pretty much. They're giving us the runaround. Playing along just makes them laugh at us.

Concede and ignore OB, they're irrelevant and hammering that point works against us. Do plainly say that we will not tolerate any encroachment towards our borders.

[scooter]

I literally laughed out loud when I read WPC's proposal.

About the CIvPlayers:

About the drafts to Civplayers, my god they are annoying. We have to cut the bull a bit here IMO. YOU ARE NOT BLUNT ENOUGH! Imagine you are talking to me. I read your drafts to them and I get hot under the collar. It feels patronizing, cloying and smarmy. That is not the way you want to deal with these guys.

"I hope I can understand your team's goals and aims a little better." Give me a fucking break. Let's not play stupid. Their goal i to win. They don't want to give us an advantage by giving us more trade routes. I wouldn't do it either. In fact I haven't in numerous games. Yes they want something in return. They want an advantage. Just ask them, "what do you want for OB?" They aren't stupid. They understand we're in the lead unlike WPC or Germans they aren't going to just bend the fuck over. Your language is diplomatic, distant and annoying. This message will only drive them further against us. I know if you sent that msg to me I'd say, "WTF you think I'm stupid?"

And honestly I get that the msg they sent us was similar, but A) it was shorter and B) I think they were poking fun at us too. Why can't we just be real with these guys?

All we need to tell them is:
What do you want for OB?
We don't want war.
If you settle any closer to us we will end the NAP.

Please stop trying to be nice to these guys. They don't want to be nice, friendly and cuddly.

I'll be honest. I agree with this post 100%. If this was a solo game for me, I would've said "let me know if you want to be done playing games, until then we have nothing to talk about" and then try to isolate them diplomatically.

Actually, I think the smartest option here is pointy stick diplo. We have long NAPs with everybody else, and our military dwarfs these guys. We're in a position of power, and acting like we're the ones with no military is probably a mistake. The best approach with this kind of team is probably:

1) Declare war, move in with the axes
2) Say "Sign this 60 turn NAP and border agreement now or else no peace"
3) If they reject, just choke.

Not really an option with the temporary NAP we have, but I'd be all in favor of going with the blunt route here if there's support for that. The nice routine is not getting their attention. I KNOW we don't want war, but seriously, they want it less than us.

[scooter]

Alright, how about this or CFC:

Caledorn,

Thanks again for directions, and I'm glad we were able to finally be a help to you in return. I think it's been a big boost for both of us. Let me know how things go once you meet CivPlayers. They may be a very small team, but they still seem to be doing quite well in this game.

As a courtesy, I wanted to inform you that we will be settling a new city 1S of the oasis pretty soon. In accordance with our settling agreement, this we be our last city in your direction.

Thanks!
scooter - Team RB

Speak now, or else this shall be sent in the next hour or so.

[Sullla]

Let's not be too aggressive about these messages with CivPlayers. We might have more military than CivPlayers, but our military is spread out all over the map and in extremely poor position to fight another team right now. They already have a sacrificial altar in virtually every city and can one-pop whip units with ease. We can also see that CivPlayers has both horses and copper already connected. While I do think we could beat them if necessary, it's much more important to avoid fighting completely. There's zero reason to pick a fight with them right now.

Just ask them again if they want OB now that we have an active trade connection. If not, no big deal, we'll get them from someone else. I don't think it's patronizing to ask. I don't see how going the Lewwyn route benefits us all that much. Maybe they like the tone, but it's equally likely that they get pissed and we make a major enemy for no reason. Lewwyn, your track record on making peace with neighbors is not exactly the best. It might make us feel better to send a message like that, but I wouldn't recommend it as good policy. I liked some of the earlier messages we were suggesting a lot more. Keep it short and sweet and simply ask them about OB and if they want some kind of longer-term deal so that we can both concentrate on other parts of the map.

With regards to CivFanatics, I still don't see any reason to tell them the exact spot we plan to settle. I would simply say "we're settling our final border city towards you" in the next few turns. Telling them the exact spot can only lead to them getting pissed and/or trying to sabotage our plant.

[Lewwyn]

Heh, war what is it good for?

I liked some of the earlier messages we were suggesting a lot more. Keep it short and sweet and simply ask them about OB and if they want some kind of longer-term deal so that we can both concentrate on other parts of the map.

I'm fine with this. I may have exaggreated slightly but in essence all I'm asking for is for us to cut the extra flowery language and be direct with them. We say, "Okay, what do you want for OB?" with out all the rest of the message. The earlier messages were not short in sweet. We don't have to be uber-aggressive we just have to not be so annoying. We already have the NAP. If they don't want OB, we can move on.