The Dark arts - C&D Master Thread

[waterbat]

the immediate need is not great as we have been able to track CivPlayers' Power as they are Rival Worst in that category. Once we lose that kind of visibility, we are going to be a bit in the dark. I think we need their graphs for the POWER number alone. 15 turns isnt so bad - it gets us the graphs just as we need them (nearing the end of NAP).

[kjn]

Yes, but having the graphs for CivPlayers would be extremely valuable, while having the graphs for UniversCiv and Spanish Apolyton would be almost worthless. Do we really care what weak teams on the other side of the world are doing? I still think it's more valuable to keep spending against CivPlayers, to help push us towards a future date where we can see their Demos.

Oh ye of little faith.

We are in a situation where we have a large set of data points over time:

* Rival max
* Rival min
* Rival average (offset with 0-7 for some fields)
* Individual rival values (up to 8, currently 3)
* Our rank and value

We currently know three rivals apart from the min, max, and average. This means I can do the calculation in reverse, much like my earlier analysis of the power of our then unmet teams.

How about we put the this turn's EPs onto CivPlayers as well, but that we assess how long it will take us to get CivPlayer's graphs next turn? If it's much longer than the time it takes to get the graphs for the Spanish and Univers, then I imagine we can just as well switch over. If it's only a few turns difference, then stay on CivPlayers.

[NobleHelium]

We will not get graphs on CivPlayers until we get courthouses. If they keep spending 10 points we need to spend more than 4 points a turn in order to get them, because we have greater than 100% mission cost against them (because they've generated more EPs overall).

[SleepingMoogle]

That would be a pretty strong argument to pick up Code of Laws after Monarchy as was the original plan.

[SevenSpirits]

That would be a pretty strong argument to pick up Code of Laws after Monarchy as was the original plan.

It certainly isn't! I do think Code of Laws is a good next tech, but the tiny EP bonus from a building we won't build lots of for a while, being useful for getting graphs on CivPlayers in addition to the things we could already use it for, isn't worth mentioning.

[kalin]

Let's hope we won't have to do construction next...

Kalin

[novice]

There's always the EP slider.

[kjn]

Yeah, though I'd prefer to not have to use the slider for EPs (we have better uses for our commerce), at least not yet. The +4 we get by default is a pittance compared to the 200 EPs that one turn of max EP would generate, so why put those against CivPlayers in this case? It's not like their graphs are that helpful right now.

I think using the EP slider might be worthwhile in 15 or 20 turns time or so, if I can't keep track of CivPlayers' numbers by doing reverse calculations.

[novice]

Yeah, though I'd prefer to not have to use the slider for EPs (we have better uses for our commerce), at least not yet. The +4 we get by default is a pittance compared to the 200 EPs that one turn of max EP would generate, so why put those against CivPlayers in this case? It's not like their graphs are that helpful right now.

I think using the EP slider might be worthwhile in 15 or 20 turns time or so, if I can't keep track of CivPlayers' numbers by doing reverse calculations.

Yeah this makes sense, I suppose.

[kjn]

New value required for getting the graphs for CivPlayers: 63 (was 58 last turn). Ie, we will have to use the slider if we are to get their graph in a reasonable timeframe.

I see no reason to spend our free EPs uselessly. Put them on Univers until we get their graphs, and then the Spanish. If we see the need for getting CivPlayers graphs around T115-120 and don't have enough courthouses up, then we can consider using the slider for 1 turn with max espionage on them.