[SPOILERS] Lurkerloos and map discussion

[Krill]

I'm trying to find something good to say about how Jester has MMed that civ and truth be told I've not said anything because I can't think of a single thing to say. The only reason I can think of for his dot map is that it is a difficult capital to split food from, but I can't understand the lack of roads, the lack of pop, the unit placement, the cities planted with no food resources, the wonder build, any of it.

I know why he did it that way, that those are the strategies used in deity SP but this isn't SP.

[Sullla]

I completely agree with Krill on this, and that's a sentence you won't hear from me very often. Many of the strategies for Deity Single Player have very little to do with good Multiplayer strategy, or can even be counter-productive. When I go over to CivFanatics and read some of the Deity games, I always end up shaking my head at how the game is played. Above all else, Deity SP teaches you to do one thing: how to play to beat the AI. It's as much about reverse-engineering the AI as it is learning Civ4 gameplay. There's a great deal of focus on things that have almost nothing to do with MP gameplay whatsoever: settling cities to block/claim land, building key wonders, lightbulbing key techs and then trading them to fill out the tech tree, manipulating the diplomatic modifiers with WFYABTA and WHEOOHA, etc. That all makes for an interesting and exciting game in its own right, but it's fundamentally a different game than what we're playing here. It's very jarring to sink untold hours into learning how to defeat a very specific (AI) playstyle... and then suddenly you're up against humans who don't act that way at all.

So I agree that Jester has made a lot of mistakes in terms of dotmapping, and the early tactical moves of this war have been subpar. (Moving the one axe out of a forest and onto flat ground right next to a chariot stack made no sense whatsoever. Free promotion for the enemy at 99% odds.) But I do understand the context in which he's playing, and it's a tough transition to make. I remember that TMIT came over from CivFanatics earlier, who is very well known for making a bunch of Deity videos on YouTube, and he fared poorly in the one PBEM game that he did here. In other words, MP games are really hard.

[timski]

I think you're pretty much nailed it, Sullla. The Indian game has been dominated by an advanced single player mentality, from the lack of early roads for their island nation, through to the lively discussion of turn order. Fascinating just how different these optimum play-styles can be.

P. S. If I read their defenses correctly, in 2 turns they are going to have in capital a spear, an axe, two archers and a bunch of warriors which I don't even bother to count. Next turn the'll be able to add an archer, may be two, and scooter will be able to add 2 cats and 2 axes. I don't think that capital will hold.

Not sure about that second Archer. Zulu will presumably take the hill just north of the Indian capital this turn, with their main stack of 2-movers. Seeing the Indian capital's scant defenses, they'll surely attack next turn. Without their cleverly moved Catapults if need be - India does has a boat in the arena now, so the Zulu naval advance will be getting tricky. Zulu have something like 5 Chariots, 6 Impi and a Great General Axe in their main land stack, including a few double-promoted units. Early wars are always exceptionally random, so the Zulu army could get a run of early attacks that do zero damage to the top defender. But sheer weight of numbers look likely to prevail.

And thus the only question would be whether the Zulus had enough survivors to keep advancing thereafter? Prior to Construction and (especially) Horseback Riding, India has few options but to hide behind Archers (or, erm, Walls). Zulu's production capability will be minimal for the foreseeable future, so if the Zulu army is heavily depleted by the capital attack it will necessarily stop advancing. That delay should give India the 10+ turns they need to get some Horse Archers and Catapults out, and (eventually) take back their lost cities. But if the Zulu army isn't heavily damaged, and keeps rolling, the bulk of the fighting could be over before India fields a single advanced unit, with dire consequences for CFCJester and Nakor.

[Gavagai]

Seeing the Indian capital's scant defenses, they'll surely attack next turn.

Hm, I'm not sure that it will be the right choice. Next turn India will have an axe with full defensive bonus defending against impis and C1 spear defending against chariots. I'm not sure, who will defend against GG shock axe: an axe or an archer. If it'll be an axe, than it may be reasonable to take a shot next turn: weaken an axe, than send inpis in. But if it'll be an archer than I'm pretty sure that waiting for catapults would be a better play: axe and spear behind 60% defensive bonus will have so high odds that I'm not even sure that Zulu would be able to take the capital. And even if they kill axe/spear, they will still need to kill archers which will have a very good odds for their first battle...
Of course, whipping walls was a terrible move. They could have 2 more archers instead and would have a very good chance to hold their capital. And now if Scoopin gets just a little luck, he'll be able to take capital, holy city and horse city. Actually, after that India will be pretty much done.
(One more thing to consider for Scoopin is that impis are much more valuable for him now than chariots as he opponent can't build axes but can built chariots.)

[Ceiliazul]

In other world news:

Man cheerful cat crew just have SO many islands to settle! Is Plako the only one within reach of messing up their sand castle?

Also, surprising cNav hasn't fallen yet. Is there an oceanic dateline on this map?

[Fintourist]

Wow, couple days away and this thread has exploded. Now that the Zulu-India war has actually started, I have to send my message to players if they ever happen to read this:

CFCJesterNakorUE, I feel really sorry for you guys. This attack is so crazy that there is no way anyone would have prepared for it properly. I think you guys have currently a great attitude when coping with the situation and it was just normal to get initially upset and angry about this kind of an invasion. If this attack ends up ruining your chances in this game, I hope to see all of you around in future matches.

ScoPinNoble, x1000. There has been some talk about your attack being unfair and unbalancing, but I think what you're doing is fine. It's not like gifting cities just to harm someone you don't like. Invade an island, run farmer's gambit and hope everyone else is killing each other is a terribly long shot, but hey, it is not the same thing as just throwing the game. IMO, as long that is the case, it remains everyone's own decision how to play their game.

Commodore&Thoth, Firstly, well played. Sure RNG might have been on your side, but nevertheless you did a fine job pushing the Zulus literally out of the continent. However, the fact that Zulus are actually sailing away is a huge burst of luck for you. They would have had enough power to force you burn a lot of hammers until you would have reached a position where you are currently (only 1 city remaining). I think this is a kind of pity while if you now go and win the game, people will remember that you got lucky here and value your performance less (which after your own crazy pink dot plan has been very strong IMO).

[Gavagai]

I think this is a kind of pity while if you now go and win the game, people will remember that you got lucky here and value your performance less.

Yep, I think that Commodore/Thoth have played a very strong game and kind of "deserved" their luck. I'm especially impressed how they managed to keep their economy in a decent shape while commiting lots of resources to war with Zulu. That was precisely the achivement which Zulu team was unable to duplicate. And that's why Zulu team lost.

[Zed-F]

The Zulu had a considerably worse economy going into the war than Commodore did, for various reasons, which along with their bad luck and reluctance to commit to a duel soon enough was why they were unable to maintain any kind of hammer parity with him.

[kalin]

I also think Commodore/Thoth played a very good game. There were a couple of lucky shots, however they leveraged their situation very well and were in a great position to take advantage of them.

Kalin

[flugauto]

The CommoThoth were allowed to leverage their situation. The CommoThoth were not harrassed early by impis. If there were couple impis pillaging and ruining the micro, they wouldn't have this kind of success.