WW20: Legend of the Undercity

[pindicator]

I think jkaen sounds rather convicted in his last response about his ability. Or lack thereof.

Considering the basis of my suspicion stems from that, it's given me some pause.

@Bigger-
Don't be too alarmed that we were thinking the same way. That happens when you're on the same side
The funnier bit is I was in the middle of writing my suspicions when you did your post.

Speaking of which, I was looking at your recent suspicion...

I watched the show, am caught up but decided to wait until results before doing any major work. So that is my assignment for tomorrow evening.

About rowains role, is martyr someone who protects a person during the night, take a hit for the team? If so consider that rowain was trying to cover for BRick and then both nightkillers hit him. Or one hit rowain and one hit Brick, same result. So if anyone was watching Brick tonight we should have just the 1 scum left to find. SK is assumed from now on, every-other-night village vigilante be damned. If there is a watcher who didn't check on Brick tonight, there will be blood in the lurker thread after the game.

Almost like scum knew it would be safe to kill.

And about lynches, after Gazglum actually went and did the challenge it was pretty likely he was town. The claim in itself was slight town-lean, but when he fired it off he was very likely town. Without Brick I would have had to choose hard between him and Ichabod. And Matt lynch- like I said before, dangerous to go into endgame with. Use of power not telling much, and not giving the 'list of reads'. We would not know any more if he were scum, so it was either nightly scan or the lynch. But I'm sure Azza will be more contributing this day, so we get stuff to work on.

I think Azza would have been a good lynch tomorrow for much same reason, but with the high fatality rate last 24 hours I'm not sure we have the tempo still. We are likely 8 vs 3 evils (4 scum + SK, 24 % Evils at game start). Mislynch + double village nightkills could see us at 5 vs 3, which is a possible lylo. So with 2 sure lynches left we need to make our shots count.

Remember SK doesn't count the same for lylo.

Yup, thats why 'possible' lylo.
Of course scum and SK might kill each other coming night, leaving us with 7 vs 1. I was outlining worst case.

Anyway now that SK is revealed - missing kill night two could be:
Blocked kill (either scum or SK)
No-kill (SK?)
Delayed kill (Lewwyn )
Failed scum kill on SK
(SK having protection from scum nightkills possible)
In latter case scum should know who the SK are. So perhaps that can help us finding SK before long.

I think they doubled up tbh.
What do you mean by "now that SK is revealed"?

Well there was a chance of other causes of Gaspar's death. Slight. But now I say no chance. He revealed himself.

AZZA

I see your point. Think it's important that we do our best today, still 2 evils besides Azza.

Anyone think total could be anything other than 4 scum + 1 SK? I tend to presume/assume some things rather quickly, have been known to make mistakes. Surely 5 + 1 is too much?

I mean even IF you think Azza is evil, still 2 more.

Talks about Azza being suspicious but thinks it's too late to lynch him.
Talks about the SK being revealed.
No other suspects put forward.

Yeah, I can go for Molach,

[Azza]

my point is - I don't recall you being that interested in lynching molach in previous days when me and Q were both begging everyone else to lynch him. Now that the game is near an end, and its apparent that one of you are going to be lynched before its over, you're suddenly at each others throats! You don't see how that is suspicious?

I'm not at Molach's throat. Also, Molach's only argument against me was a rehash from night 1 that had already been addressed. If we're distancing, it's a pretty piss poor attempt to do so.

[Qgqqqqq]

First off, sorry if I've ever been antagonistc to either Molach or Ryan =- that's never my intention, but I know I can gold off badly.
Sorry
Secondly I completely agree with Lewwyn - there's no need to be focussing on the sk - the meta speculations been driving recently
Thirdly there is no clear consensus as to Lewwyn being sk - I definitely doubt it, just because certain people have pushed it really hard doesn't mean that's the general opinion.
You are relatively clearly trying to shift blame from your own attack Lewwyn - my only qualm is that its such an obviously scummy move on your part.
I agree that its weird how azza and Molach are jumping on each other, but I think jkaen needs to explain himself.

jkaen do you have any tells of your own, of do you plan to just piggy back on the village today?

[Serdoa]

Was super scummy. Jkaen is attempting to get me to vote Serdoa, which I still haven't done and to stop voting Pind. But worse he is trying to get me to focus on killing the SK. Look if we do have 3 scum left we are better off looking for scummy behavior in general. It is foolish to hunt solely for the SK. It limits your search targets and parameters. Villagers suddenly become more lynchable because while they do not fit with scum. They might possibly fit the SK. Mislynch ahoy. If you focus on SK and you go through a bunch of villagers to kill the SK, then you still have the scum faction a voting block of, we assume 2, to deal with.

SOLELY SK HUNTING IS A TRAP!

Lewwyn, of course it is right that we should not mislynch half the village, thinking they are the SK. But our situation here is not that. Our situation is that we have a imo very good case speaking for someone being SK while we have only weak to non-existing cases on possible scum. Lets see:

Molach: Somehow still lives, lynch him! (Thats the worst argument done this game btw - there are reasons he was not lynched [D1 village on flug, D2 village mostly discussing novice, late quick push on Gaius, D3 village pushed by wolves to lynch Mattimeo], and none of those reasons are inherently having to do with him. His alignment is unknown, but the cases keeps being that he didn't save flug_auto, NOT that he is still alive)

Jkaen: Meta-arguments about not knowing his role and alignment. But what else? Is there anything in his posts? Seemingly not, otherwise someone would have pointed it out already yes?

Azza: Posts a heap more than in the last games. And content even. Why is he on the block?

As for all 3 of them, I could see them scum, I don't say they are innocent. But I don't see a real case build around them. After 3 days and nights I would expect we have more to go on than "he still is alive"... and we have. Looking at Lewwyn I've never seen a case fitting better. And as for the comment from Molach about Occams Razor: This IS the easiest explanation.

So, I really think Lewwyn is our best lynch today. Because he is right, we should not solely hunt the SK. We also should not solely hunt the wolves. We should hunt everyone opposed to the village and lynch the one with the highest probability of being non-town-aligned. And that is Lewwyn imo.

YES! I've been saying this all game, thank you! SK's almost always end up getting themselves killed anyway, what's the point? Listen to Lewwyn, he's making sense here!

I do think someone actively looking to lynch someone solely because they could be SK is a likely wolf/scum. In addition to Jkaen and ryan, azza has done this on day 2-3 as well.

WW18, SK nearly won the game and as I have often read would have if not for too much village-protection.

Also, whats that generally for an argument Bigger? SK getting themselves killed? Yes, and certainly more often by a village-lynch. Of course for that we have to lynch the SK first and not let him live because someone else will take care of it. No, not hunting solely for him, but Jkaen is right, if you really think you found the SK, of course you lynch him. That takes away a night-kill which gives us more time to hunt wolves.

Your next sentence is even harder for me to understand. If I believe someone is SK, of course I want to lynch him solely based on that. On what else? I really don't get what you want to tell us with that, apart from "Don't lynch the SK". Why?

[Jkaen]

First off, sorry if I've ever been antagonistc to either Molach or Ryan =- that's never my intention, but I know I can gold off badly.
Sorry
Secondly I completely agree with Lewwyn - there's no need to be focussing on the sk - the meta speculations been driving recently
Thirdly there is no clear consensus as to Lewwyn being sk - I definitely doubt it, just because certain people have pushed it really hard doesn't mean that's the general opinion.
You are relatively clearly trying to shift blame from your own attack Lewwyn - my only qualm is that its such an obviously scummy move on your part.
I agree that its weird how azza and Molach are jumping on each other, but I think jkaen needs to explain himself.

jkaen do you have any tells of your own, of do you plan to just piggy back on the village today?

My own tells today, you are joking right?

One of the main reasons I have votes on me today was my own case against Serdoa

[Serdoa]

Secondly I completely agree with Lewwyn - there's no need to be focussing on the sk - the meta speculations been driving recently
Thirdly there is no clear consensus as to Lewwyn being sk - I definitely doubt it, just because certain people have pushed it really hard doesn't mean that's the general opinion.

Why? Honest question. Why do you doubt it? What part of it makes no sense for you? Thats what really drives me off tbh, that so often something is stated without explanation for the why behind it. Which is the actual interesting part.

You are relatively clearly trying to shift blame from your own attack Lewwyn - my only qualm is that its such an obviously scummy move on your part.

But you don't believe him to be scum / SK? Why, even though you saw a tell?

[Qgqqqqq]

I don't believe who to be sk/scum?

My disagreement with the sk case on Lewwyn is that I feel ichabod clears him from executing a kill (no I don't believe the meta that he either didn't kill last night or Matt has some sort of superpower for delaying someone's actions for the rest of the game)
Yes this doesn't stop it being a scum, but I personally believe Lewwyn as villager - everything feels appropriate - his quiet day1, flurry of cases day2 and I believe his disappearance).
Jkaen I was discounting your case on serdoa as nonsensical since it a) ignored his roleclaim b)attributed it to someone who we had no reason to suspect had said role - most notably, why would serdoa claim if he didn't know why he had it (I.e. didn't know who had placed it - imagine if someone like Ryan counterclaumed) and c) had no scummy reasons besides meta, where you the called it a smoking gun.
So in conclusion, do you have any other tells?

[Jkaen]

Oh I see its piggy backing if I dont come up with theories of my own THAT YOU LIKE.

I didnt understand that was how you were defining it.

I will look, but part of the reason for my early defense vote (which is now a real suspicion vote) was that I am in meetings all day today, so you may get more from me in 10 hours

[Molach]

" Non-scum I still have Serdoa. Tremendous effort, brings many new theories to the table, big push on Ichabod day 1. That push would have meant that Scumdoa would have had to started up & really followed through the case on someone he knew to be innocent. (Innocent because there was no evidence on SK first day) "

This line, I have been pushing that theory since the morning and when Serdoa adds the part about Tasunke getting blocked its his? It just really hurts when I work on something like that and someone takes the credit for it.

I think you misinterpret here, I just say that I do not think Serdoa is scum because of his huge posting vs. Ichabod on first day. And other stuff later on. I'm not trying to say nothing about blocking and night actions.

@Pindi:

Talks about Azza being suspicious but thinks it's too late to lynch him.
Talks about the SK being revealed.
No other suspects put forward.

1) Before last night, I (still) had Azza as most likely lynch. Dind't vote him then as I didn't consider all just yet. After my review last night, which took over 2 hours scanning and writing, I land on him both being suspicious and vote.
2) Don't you agree that SK is not revealed to be in the game? Not clear after day 1 IMO.
3) I suspect Jkaen a bit more, like I post, and will see what the recent move on him can bring out.

'Suspects' above are related to scum rather than SK. Azza and Jkaen could both be SK as well. Serdoa could be SK but not scum. Pindicator and Q could easily be SK but not that scummy. Ryan could.
Despite Bigger suggesting 5+1, I think it's 4+1, we have 2 scum left to find. Not sure why I need more suspects. For me still undecided are Q, Pind, Lewwyn, Ryan and Bigger, if both Azza and Jkaen are innocent then two scum among them.

@Azza:
Yes it was answered, thats how you play the game, find a good vote and leave it there. I suppose I am it today. Am I a good for for being scum, SK or because it might actually be a successful compeditor for the block today, with help from Q and Bigger?

[Qgqqqqq]

The piggy backing was on Lewwyn - you even said that you were only doing it as it was the consensus.