Honestly, we are being way too nice about this. Their city doesn't even get stone for them because of the border pop, it's ridiculous how much we are bending over for them. Normally I would be laughing at them at this point.
(February 18th, 2013, 11:38)NobleHelium Wrote: Honestly, we are being way too nice about this. Their city doesn't even get stone for them because of the border pop, it's ridiculous how much we are bending over for them. Normally I would be laughing at them at this point.
Of course we are. But we've been over the reasons for why we need to suck it up and do this anyways. This NAP is WAY WAY WAY more valuable to us than it is to CFC. It just is.
as mentioned ... we're not strong enough to face an actual dogpile ( although its questionable for one such 1. be generated, and 2. to succed) so we should at least be friendly with some of our neighbours ... specially with a passive-aggessive CivPlayers on our weakest border
(February 18th, 2013, 11:24)Sullla Wrote: OK, so about the Great Wall in Mansa's Muse. I went ahead and wanted to check if we could land the Great Wall at the same date (eot 105) while trading away stone on the last turn of production, on Turn 105 itself. This is actually readily possible at minimal cost: we have to drop a grassland cottage for one turn and work a plains hill mine instead. But all city growths still occur and the wonder gets finished the same turn.
Short math: Mansa has 89/150 production into the wonder currently. The previous plan had us getting 15 production this turn, then 24 prod + 24 prod over the next two turns for a total of 152 production eot 105. Instead, we can get 24 production this turn, then again next turn (both turns with stone), then trade away stone and get 13 production on the final turn without stone. 89 + 24 + 24 + 13 = 150 exactly. No need for stone on T105, the last turn.
Tested in our sandbox and it all worked fine. No need to whip Mansa or anything like that. It costs us about 6 beakers and 2 food overall, which is fairly trivial. Hopefully our diplo team can make use of this information.
That is awesome news. Thanks for looking into this. If CFC still plants that city with stone first ring, after we juggle micro and otherwise make it plain we're conceding point after point to keep a good diplomatic relationship...
This brings up a question in my mind: what is the extent of our patience in this matter? What would be absolutely unacceptable, what would we be willing to live with, and what is our ultimate preferred outcome? To me:
Unacceptable: settling where currently positioned, on the plains tile. Since we cannot accept this, what would we have to do about it? Separate question there.
Willing to live with: 1S of rice. There is still border overlap, but we'll probably win it, although I'd prefer to keep the desert hill in our borders.
Preferred outcome: SE of rice. I doubt CFC is willing to concede to this extent. However, this plant is least antagonistic and still nets all the resources in the area.
For each of these positions, we should achieve a different diplomatic result.
Settling on the plain tile (currently positioned) : most aggressive response from us, perhaps talk of shortening existing NAP for emphasis. Not preferred.
1S of rice, favorable diplomatic result for CFC (spit-balling an idea, offer our "best-case" early date for when we can offer stone (T106?), T200 NAP expansion.
SE of rice, favorable diplomatic result for CFC. Really, I'd expect the same "compensation" (in the form of a favorable diplomatic result for CFC) for the last two positions, but having our preferred settling location position as the start for negotiation may make the middle ground easier to achieve. For SE of rice, maybe suggest T175 for the NAP, since we seem to want the longer extension much more than they do. There is no doubt in my mind that we will benefit from the NAP more than they will because we're currently in the lead.
(February 18th, 2013, 11:18)Sullla Wrote: scooter, we can get Great Wall at eot 105 in Mansa's Muse even if we trade them our stone on T105 (the turn after finishing Hanging Gardens). Since the current turn is T103, that's the turn after next, *MUCH* faster than they could connect stone themselves.
If you have a chance, please tell CFC that we'll trade them stone on T105 in exchange for a long NAP and them not settling that city.
No! Please no!!
Let's not trade stone away until we have the GW in the bag even if we can finish the wonder timely! I agree that they are probably going for Pyramids, but there is no guarantee that they aren't building GW themselves. If we promise Stone on T105 for them, they can possibly plan the micro with their fast workers so that they chop it out immediately. I do not want to lose that wonder despite the fact that fail gold is ok here.
Let's just tell them that we gift Stone on T106 and make it clear that if they settle aggresively our culture will temporirarily steal the stone tile and we are not willing to gift the stone to them. That should be good enough for an offer to convince them settle elsewhere. They are not really going to get the resource earlier connected anyways!
You know, I honestly think that they shouldn't even be building the pyramids. They are Mansa Musa (I briefly thought they are Elizabeth, which made somewhat more sense), so Rep doesn't do too much for them, and they already teched Monarchy. Do they want Universal Suffarage? I doubt they have many towns, since we only have one, or that cash-rushing is the new use of gold at this time. This does make them more flexible, but the production that they are going to put into the Pyramids could be better spent elsewhere. Even for a disorganized team, if they are one (and I'm having a hard time imagining that they are not), this is a bad decision. Through in the "lets antagonize our neighbors, who are leading the game" diplo ramifications and I just do not understand CFC. I fully support giving up stone a turn earlier with Sullla's micro change to help them build the Pyramids. I'd much rather see the Pyramids in their hands than in Apolyton's, for example.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(February 18th, 2013, 12:55)Merovech Wrote: You know, I honestly think that they shouldn't even be building the pyramids. They are Mansa Musa (I briefly thought they are Elizabeth, which made somewhat more sense), so Rep doesn't do too much for them, and they already teched Monarchy.
Parts of the team feels they Must Do Something about their situation, Pyramids means they are Doing Something, thus they must get the Pyramids.
Or at least that's my take on it. Not much rational thought, probably lots of twitchiness and changes of minds as different people push for different things.
Furthermore, I consider that forum views should be fluid in width
(February 18th, 2013, 13:27)darrelljs Wrote: Rep happiness can be very useful for a FIN civ. That plus extra beakers in your GP farm might make it an okay move with Stone.
Darrell
especially with a SPI civ that can move freely between rep and HR as needed, or even run police state for 5-10 turns to pump out military if needed.
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
![[Image: ISDG-538s.jpg]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19563179/ISDG/ISDG-538s.jpg)
