[SPOILERS] Jowy & Stampy

[novice]

We're trying to make it so that neither side gets an advantage because of double moving; in this case, if he HAD movement points left on those units, then he gets an advantage from my double move.

If other lurkers have an opinion I'd like to hear it before playing. I don't think NobleHelium understands the situation when he says that it's irrelevant whether they missed a turn of reaction because of their bad play or because of double moves.

I understand this is an unfun situation, but I have to agree with NobleHelium here. You can't really argue that your double move doesn't matter because AutomatedTeller might get an advantage from it in some hypothetical cases - I think we can all see how that sets a bad precedent. The fact of the matter is that your chariot double moved AT to get in the position it's currently at.

Definition of double move is moving twice before your opponent gets to react. In this case, AT possibly got to react. If the unit or units that could make it to defend the city still had movement points left on T90 when he logged in after I moved the chariot, then he had a chance to react. If he spent 4 minutes fucking around and didn't notice my chariot, then that's just his bad play. That's what I'm trying to find out. The point of the honor system is to judge each case independently because no-one has figured out a good rule-set to follow in these situations. If I find out that he did have those movement points, then I will play first. If I don't get any new information (whether it's because they don't want to reveal it, lurkers don't want to ask it, lurkers don't want to tell me etc.) then I will not have enough information to judge whether I should move first or second, and in that case I will do the honorable thing and play second, even if it ends up netting an unfair advantage to AT.

I disagree pretty strongly with your interpretation here, Jowy. For everybody's sanity, giving somebody a chance to react must be defined by the act of ending turn before your opponent. Are you saying that AT's ability to react to your t90 moves was unhampered by his playing and ending turn before you? Don't you think there's anything AT might have wanted to do differently prior to ending turn if you had ended turn before him?

[Jowy]

I disagree pretty strongly with your interpretation here, Jowy. For everybody's sanity, giving somebody a chance to react must be defined by the act of ending turn before your opponent. Are you saying that AT's ability to react to your t90 moves was unhampered by his playing and ending turn before you? Don't you think there's anything AT might have wanted to do differently prior to ending turn if you had ended turn before him?

Yes. We're not talking about full out war, just a single chariot trying to raze an undefended city. What would he do to react? 1. Move units to defend it 2. Whip a unit to defend it. He didn't whip anything on T90, so that was still on the table when he logged back in after my move. If he hadn't already used up his movement points on the units that can make it to defend the city, then he would also get to move those units. He can do everything he otherwise would have done to defend. It's his gameplay mistake if he didn't notice the chariot because I hid it under his archer! If he missed it now, he would have missed it had I played before him!

[novice]

So basically you're saying you can never log in unless you're prepared to look over your entire turn again?

[novice]

If he hadn't already used up his movement points on the units that can make it to defend the city, then he would also get to move those units. He can do everything he otherwise would have done to defend.

What about reinforcements from backlines? What about workers, roads, and chops? You have no way of knowing what AT could and couldn't have done, and you have no right to know either. It isn't for you to guess what does and doesn't constitute a double move.

[Jowy]

If he hadn't already used up his movement points on the units that can make it to defend the city, then he would also get to move those units. He can do everything he otherwise would have done to defend.

What about reinforcements from backlines? What about workers, roads, and chops? You have no way of knowing what AT could and couldn't have done, and you have no right to know either. It isn't for you to guess what does and doesn't constitute a double move.

Again you miss the point. If he did not notice my chariot, then he would not have reacted in any of those ways. If he did notice the chariot, but couldn't react because of the moves he did before I moved, then I should absolutely let him play first on T92 to avoid double moving. What matters is whether he noticed the chariot. If he didn't, then it's a gameplay mistake that he would have done even with the correct turn order. And btw I've already stated that if I don't get more information and can't tell for sure, then I've promised to move second even if it turns out to give an unfair advantage to AT.

[SevenSpirits]

Again you miss the point. If he did not notice my chariot, then he would not have reacted in any of those ways.

AT has no obligation to notice your unit, because he has a reasonable expectation that he won't be double-moved. He checked for enemy units when he played his turn.* Since there were none, he knew he did not have to prepare defenses! He knew his city could not be attacked for two more turns because he knew no one would double move him. Because you are not allowed to do that in this game.

There is nothing that magically makes a double move OK here.

* Well, maybe he played the turn blindfolded, I have no way of telling. But we know he didn't see your unit because it wasn't even there yet.

[novice]

Again you miss the point. If he did not notice my chariot, then he would not have reacted in any of those ways. If he did notice the chariot, but couldn't react because of the moves he did before I moved, then I should absolutely let him play first on T92 to avoid double moving. What matters is whether he noticed the chariot. If he didn't, then it's a gameplay mistake that he would have done even with the correct turn order.

Again,

So basically you're saying you can never log in unless you're prepared to look over your entire turn again?

There's a difference between logging in to take a screenshot or whatever, and logging in to, you know, actually play the turn. If I'm playing that turn after you've moved your chariot, don't you think I notice the chariot when I cycle through my units and come to my archer on that tile?

And again, you're saying that your double move doesn't matter if AT did this or that on his second login - but there's no way of knowing what he would have done on his first login if you had played before him. There's no causality between those two situations.

And btw I've already stated that if I don't get more information and can't tell for sure, then I've promised to move second even if it turns out to give an unfair advantage to AT.

I'm not going to give you info coming from AT's spoiler thread, and I shouldn't have to. This is why I'm arguing the general principle here.

[Jowy]

Again you miss the point. If he did not notice my chariot, then he would not have reacted in any of those ways.

AT has no obligation to notice your unit, because he has a reasonable expectation that he won't be double-moved. He checked for enemy units when he played his turn.* Since there were none, he knew he did not have to prepare defenses! He knew his city could not be attacked for two more turns because he knew no one would double move him. Because you are not allowed to do that in this game.

There is nothing that magically makes a double move OK here.

* Well, maybe he played the turn blindfolded, I have no way of telling. But we know he didn't see your unit because it wasn't even there yet.

Alright, I get it. I still think it sets a bad precedent that your log-ins after pressing enter will not be counted. Following the same rule, if I play a turn, then someone brings their stack to my vision, I can log in during that same turn, make any preparation I want, and the enemy will still be forced to let me act first in the next turn, granting me an extra turn to prepare. I thought the honor system was created to combat these kind of situations where following a certain rule-set will give one side an advantage due to the format of the game, but apparently honor system means strictly following a rule-set that is not defined at the beginning of the game

[Krill]

Remind me never to play a PB with you Jowy.

[Jowy]

On positive note I'm happy I don't have to make the decision on whether to attack or not! Had we had a chance to raze the city at the cost of a single chariot (and possibly not even that!), it would have made all the sense in the world gameplay wise to do it. However, we're playing against human players who do not follow perfect logic. What that means is that acts like that will carry negative diplomatic effects even in a game without diplomacy; in worst case scenario, a small jab at someone might make them dedicate the rest of their game to eliminating you, rather than on winning the game.

Remind me never to play a PB with you Jowy.

I thought you were already scarred for life when I eliminated you in one of those RB multiplayer games back when I was a Settler level player