Rebalancing Civ4: RtR Mod

[Krill]

There's no point in altering aqueducts, because they fill a niche that needs to be filled even if most of the time they are junk.. This isn't FFH were everything has to be uber OP to be worth building. Aqueducts become useful once you build factories and power plants and you need every scrap of health possible, but having them available earlier does provide the potential for growing specific cities really large. And growth formula is something that I wouldn't dare touch.

FWIW, if EXP was junk tier or almost junk tier, cheap aqueducts or cheap hospitals would be the first items to consider giving it. After having time to read PB5 and watch PB8 that is something I could be convinced of. There is also an argument I've heard that CRE is also weak and needs a minor late game buff but truth be told I wouldn't know what to do with CRE, there aren't any buildings that make sense to give it (except potentially the Observatory).

As to the Madrassa, it's the only building that enables priest slots beyond the obelisk and temple and has double the culture of a normal library, and the UU is still useful attacking cities without siege support if you spy revolt the city and in late era starts. With Agri/Myst (only other civ with that is Inca) the Arabia pick is pretty interesting IMO. Any food tech and Myst would be reasonable, but Agri is the "closest" to Writing if you normally go through Pottery, remembering that tech cost is equal between Hunting and Agri but AH can be situation as it enables camps and shows horses.

[Commodore]

Clearly, CRE needs half-priced broadcast towers that give +1 happy. :rolleyes: It's still the crutch its always been, unless Maya or Greece not really much else to say about it. Half-priced aqueducts might be a nice buff to Exp although Ottomen would get a big boost that way (like 8str Praet Rome got buffed as a side effect of the AGG change).

[pindicator]

As to the Madrassa, it's the only building that enables priest slots beyond the obelisk and temple and has double the culture of a normal library, and the UU is still useful attacking cities without siege support if you spy revolt the city and in late era starts. With Agri/Myst (only other civ with that is Inca) the Arabia pick is pretty interesting IMO. Any food tech and Myst would be reasonable, but Agri is the "closest" to Writing if you normally go through Pottery, remembering that tech cost is equal between Hunting and Agri but AH can be situation as it enables camps and shows horses.

Yeah, i've always wanted to play with Madrassas in a MP setting. I remember we briefly mentioned it recently in a pbem lurker thread... i think 49? I said i wanted to see Arabia used and you said that Egypt just worked better for the same idea.

So would you say a tech swap would be enough to distance Arabia from being Egypt-lite?

(I have no issue with the Arabia UU. But both Egypt and Arabia have horse-based UUs, and i don't know of many people who would say Arabia's is the better to have. )

[Commodore]

When next I find the time (a couple games from now) I think I'll start an RBmod game with a "sucky in BtS" subset to snake pick from:

Boudicea, Hammurabi, Tokugawa, Cyrus, Saladin, Fredrick

Celts, Babylon, Japan, Persia, Arabia, Germany

I think all of them could be very interesting.

[pindicator]

Comm, i take it you aren't building barays in pb8

[Commodore]

Comm, i take it you aren't building barays in pb8

When I can afford 100h for 1fpt, I'll let you know. I've built one, might build a few more...all in places that would get aqueducts anyway.

[Krill]

Clearly, CRE needs half-priced broadcast towers that give +1 happy. :rolleyes: It's still the crutch its always been, unless Maya or Greece not really much else to say about it. Half-priced aqueducts might be a nice buff to Exp although Ottomen would get a big boost that way (like 8str Praet Rome got buffed as a side effect of the AGG change).

Fuck Ottomans. Unless they get given a huge big win button they aren't going to be OP. Jans still aren't OP and Agri/Wheel isn't the greatest starting tech pairing evar when Hunting enables pastures and costs as much as Agri.

As to the Madrassa, it's the only building that enables priest slots beyond the obelisk and temple and has double the culture of a normal library, and the UU is still useful attacking cities without siege support if you spy revolt the city and in late era starts. With Agri/Myst (only other civ with that is Inca) the Arabia pick is pretty interesting IMO. Any food tech and Myst would be reasonable, but Agri is the "closest" to Writing if you normally go through Pottery, remembering that tech cost is equal between Hunting and Agri but AH can be situation as it enables camps and shows horses.

Yeah, i've always wanted to play with Madrassas in a MP setting. I remember we briefly mentioned it recently in a pbem lurker thread... i think 49? I said i wanted to see Arabia used and you said that Egypt just worked better for the same idea.

So would you say a tech swap would be enough to distance Arabia from being Egypt-lite?

(I have no issue with the Arabia UU. But both Egypt and Arabia have horse-based UUs, and i don't know of many people who would say Arabia's is the better to have. )

I think there are a couple of ways to view civs. One of them is if you were picking civs in a snakepick, another is if it were paired with a random leader like in PB5 and PB8. In random leaders I think it's reasonably different and neither OP nor UP, it's usable with most leaders so I think it passes the balance test. If picking civs, then Arabia is an interesting civ to leave open because it's a Myst start so if the players lower down the pick don't choose a Myst civ Arabia is a better pick for securing a religion and shrining, for example. Then there are maps and leaders that don't want to focus on controlling the game with chariots and axes, and CRE leaders etc, so I think there are enough times where Arabia would be a reasonable pick compared to Egypt, better, and/or different but still times where Egypt is preferable. And personal playstyle is again a factor.

I think that Agri/Myst is a tech pairing that is good to have available without the focus on terraces or quechua (Inca had both nerfed for example). Combined with the Madrassa, it makes for at worst a niche but usable civ and at best fun early game that doesn't rely on getting IW for mid game options. Don't get me wrong, Hunting/Wheel or yet another Agri/Wheel could just as easily work from a balance perspective, but it wouldn't be that interesting to play out.

[Krill]

When next I find the time (a couple games from now) I think I'll start an RBmod game with a "sucky in BtS" subset to snake pick from:

Boudicea, Hammurabi, Tokugawa, Cyrus, Saladin, Fredrick

Celts, Babylon, Japan, Persia, Arabia, Germany

I think all of them could be very interesting.

I'm currently designing a PB game for after PB8 that could be interesting for the participants, even though I doubt we would get enough people to make it work.

[pindicator]

Thanks Krill, i was interested in hearing your thoughts there. I do like giving another Agri/Myst option, so it'd be fun to see played out.

Comm, i call dibs on Frederick of Arabia for your game :D

[Bigger]

When next I find the time (a couple games from now) I think I'll start an RBmod game with a "sucky in BtS" subset to snake pick from:

Boudicea, Hammurabi, Tokugawa, Cyrus, Saladin, Fredrick

Celts, Babylon, Japan, Persia, Arabia, Germany

I think all of them could be very interesting.

I'll play if I can be Saladin. You can pick my civ .

Thanks Krill, i was interested in hearing your thoughts there. I do like giving another Agri/Myst option, so it'd be fun to see played out.

Comm, i call dibs on Frederick of Arabia for your game :D

fine, you take frederick, I'll get Saladin. commodore who do you want?