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Well the problem now is that we should check for seafood before settling any cities there but I'm not sure if we'll have time to do that and still modify the plan to take advantage of any seafood, potentially.

Settling where the scout is now is definitely a possibility, if we can get the city down early enough and then two workers to quarry the stone in a reasonable timeframe and a third one to chop.

NobleHelium · May 22nd, 2013, 02:02

It's time for another edition of the Gaspar and NobleHelium show!

Gaspar · May 22nd, 2013, 02:12

Just for the record, I'm not totally crazy and this conversation started with NH asking me how I'd play this start. Though I guess this means I'm your 46th useless dedlurker now. So, there's that.

Lewwyn · May 22nd, 2013, 02:20

(May 22nd, 2013, 02:12)Gaspar Wrote: Just for the record, I'm not totally crazy and this conversation started with NH asking me how I'd play this start. Though I guess this means I'm your 46th useless dedlurker now. So, there's that.

Comic relief isn't useless.

Serdoa · May 22nd, 2013, 03:41

I laughed... hard smile

But for the actual questions that I can deduce from this chat:

1.) I don't necessarily see what I do as the best start possible, just to make that clear upfront and I do believe that some of your points are very good Gaspar. That said:

2.) I don't agree with "early religion means no SH needed". Early religion does not guarantee that it spreads to every city and as you can't influence that, you can either plant as if you have no culture (which defies the whole point of going for it) or plant assuming it will spread (and if it doesn't happen just forget the city for the next 30+ turns). Or you build missionaries. Which means Org.Rel. And 40 hammers per city potentially.

Additionally we play on a 10-player-map, so we should plant quite a few cities. Saving per city 30 hammers is well worth investing the 120 into SH. Especially if it is actually only an investment of 60. If you go for early religion you need Myst in any case so there is no additional tech-investment and early religion will at least cost you 2 missionaries which is already more expensive than SH. Not to speak of the added micro necessary to make certain you have a missionary in time for a new city.

3.) Planting on the PH does speed up early on and goes to basically equal footing later on (but still early game). Comparison:

Tiles worked	Center	Corn	Fish	Farmed FP	PH-Mine	GH-Mine	PH-Mine	Ivory	Total
Fish-Plant	2/1/1	6/0/0	5/0/1		0/4/1	1/3/0	0/4/0		14/12/3
PH-Plant	2/2/1	6/0/0		4/0/1	0/4/1	1/3/0		1/3/1	14/12/4

So, thats pretty much the same but without the investment into a workboat (30 hammers) and Fishing (70 beakers?) early on. If you add a cheap Lighthouse it is one food ahead - and 60 hammers down. Wait, 60 hammers? Thats SH instead. And yes, I realize that we have more worker turns to invest for it to work + the Ivory means Hunting (but we'll probably want that anyway soonish for more happy AND defense against Chariots).

Quite honestly, I don't think there is much difference in the openings, except that the Fish-plant is working to get itself up for nearly the first 30 turns while the PH-plant gets the first settler potentially already at T29/T30. Which does lead to additional production, commerce etc. Of course another point is the moving of the Palace, but imo we will want to do that with either of the spots because in the end both are not really suited for a FIN-capital.

4.) I agree that planting on the Stone does not really look like something we want to do. I also do agree with 1N and 3E of that for potential cities, I had the same thought today in the morning when I played the turn. The city in the east would have 6 cottages and could grow very fast. But is the city on the PH 1N of the Stone really better? Think about it with the other city and the worked tiles of that city in mind. It will work 5 of its 6 cottages. That doesn't really leave much for the other city. And none will be a production-powerhouse either.

Tbh, I think we have to get some more scouting in before we decide where to settle. For now, I think I'll move the scout 1W on the grassland (which should show 3 more ocean tiles and potential seafood there) and afterwards 1NE onto the second PH there. Move after that probably onto the Pig to the PH in the east.

5.) I agree with Sumeria to go relatively early for Priesthood to get the Ziggurat. And that of course makes a Oracle-play interesting. Especially with as much coast as we see here, as early MC into Colossus would be great. But it would mean 3 early wonders + a forge for a non-IND civ. Not really what I'd call a good opening, as it just delays us too much most likely. But if we don't take MC, what would Oracle get us? CoL? Thats not really of benefit to us. Maths? Thats a possibility, but honestly if we don't divert hammers and tech to the Oracle we probably can get Maths nearly as quickly without that investment. Monarchy? Only if we don't have enough happy early on, otherwise we'd rather have the tech and hammers invested towards more cities, Currency and Hanging Gardens (due to Stone).

And that leads me to the really, really preliminary plan:

Mining -> BW -> Myst -> Masonry -> (get SH) -> (Fishing) -> Pottery -> Writing -> Maths -> have settled 10 cities, build HG -> win!

Rowain · May 22nd, 2013, 05:59

Thread bookmarked smile

Lewwyn · May 22nd, 2013, 08:12

(May 22nd, 2013, 03:41)Serdoa Wrote: Mining -> BW -> Myst -> Masonry -> (get SH) -> (Fishing) -> Pottery -> Writing -> Maths -> have settled 10 cities, build HG -> win!

Do we want pyramids? I mean the stone is just right there... I know its a huge hammer investment but the happiness pay off is pretty large.

suttree

Highlights:

Gaspar: you can bang settlers plenty well with wet corn and fish

Gaspar: 6f tiles are not to be trifled with

Gaspar: LOOK I JUST WANT A FUCKING MOUSE STOP BERATING ME

Gaspar: i have enough natural heat anyway

Gaspar · May 22nd, 2013, 08:54

Thanks for that, Serdoa. My cost-benefit analysis tends to be all in my head so its nice to see someone less lazy do the math. smile

LH is 30h for you, but yeah otherwise I see what you're saying, and obviously its a waste of time to debate now that you've already planted. There's no question that fishing tiles are suboptimal at the start because of the investment required compared to land tiles. I still think I'd have SIP primarily because I think you'll have a hard time getting the palace done by the time your happy cap starts to grow enough that you'll want to work more tiles and also that if you have a city you don't want to overinvest in, a bunch of fin water is pretty decent choice.

Re: Stonehenge vs early religion - yeah, there's no question that Henge is much more effective and cheap than religion. I just always debate the logic of going for it because you start making other suboptimal decisions to get it done. But I'd have a hard time resisting Stone so close to the start myself.

Anyway, good luck!

Serdoa · May 22nd, 2013, 14:56

I agree with you on nearly all points Gaspar. I think these are both decisions that are nearly impossible to give a general rule for but instead really have to be evaluated for each and every occurrence - and even then it comes down to gut feel at the end.

That said, new turn is up and I am going to play it. Stay tuned for new and exciting scout-revelations. wink

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