Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[pindicator]

It's hard to get agreements with teams that don't talk to you. I think that's pretty clearly stated.

[scooter]

Only got a few minutes, so a couple quick comments.

1) I'm fine with holding off 1-2 more days on the CFC front. If CivFr doesnt give us something of substance tomorrow, I'll reach out to Yossarian and see what kind of deal-making mood they are in. My one concern is waiting too long and giving CFC and CivFr time to make peace. I think that weakens our bargaining position significantly if that were to happen.

2) In response to fluffy's comments about NAPs - we last tried a round of getting NAPs just a little before T150 with CivPlayers and Apolyton, and we were met with two "no, maybe try again later" responses. I said we'd try again about 5ish turns into the war, which is roughly where we're at. My general feeling is it would be nice to wait until after we capture the German capital. That will make it crystal clear to them that the war will be won, and our armies will be ready to roll on T170 if necessary (which is when peace expires with both of them). That may put them into more of a deal-making mood. I could of course try tomorrow and I don't think any harm will be done, but that's the reason I've been holding off. So far we haven't taken anything of consequence, but after T156 the capital will have fallen, as will a couple other cities, possibly even Warendorf. So what do you guys think - before or after the capital falls?

A comment about Apolyton - they seem unwilling to take a NAP without CivPlayers getting one. My read on CivPlayers is they seem more interested in keeping options open with CFC. With that in mind, I think we try CivPlayers first. I don't think they're all that attractive to attack anyway.

[scooter]

Please keep in mind - it's T154, and the first NAP does not run out until T170. That is 14 turns, which at the current pace is over a month away. We have the luxury of carefully getting it right rather than being overly speedy. Of course teh CFC/CivFr thing is impactful, I'm just making a general comment so we can keep a degree of perspective.

[kjn]

Definitely after we've taken the German capital. Hopefully they can see a big dip in German power then, after the huge battle with WPC as well. Might be worth to draft some maces as we fight to keep our power up, too.

I think CivPlayers is the squishiest target among our neighbours (excepting WPC). We have a wide border, and CivFr are busy with CFC. Apolyton can easily get Gunpowder, and have janissaries, ie they will easily deal with our existing army. CivPlayers can also get to Gunpowder, but it's more expensive for them, they closer to our core, and have less pop to burn for units.

[scooter]

Sure, CivFr doesn't do diplo with us. So what? We're effectively war allies that don't talk right now. CFC's CivFr border isn't safe. CFC can't possibly attack us unless they get a long NAP with CivFr, and if their diplo with CivFr is anything like ours, they won't get it. And if CFC can't attack us because of the CivFr threat, CP and Apolyton and WPC sure won't, and then we can sit back and choose our next move, rather than being forced to react to the dogpile threat. Banking next, for example, seems really tasty for a 50gpt bank in Mansa's Muse.

I think you just made the case that we are NOT effectively war allies because war is currently unlikely to break out on T175, NAP or no NAP.

So I wouldn't take a NAP with CFC at this point unless we're getting something above and beyond the simple NAP. Either CFC is paying us in some fashion, or we have plans on the table to go conquer another neighbor that will be finalized with the signing of a CFC NAP.

This is why CFC has stopped pillaging. Not threats or nice language or a sudden sense of honor. They're already at war with the team tied for #2 after pissing them off over a merchant mission, and they've therefore re-evaluated the wisdom of additionally pissing off the #1 team on their other border too. We've got the upper hand, and I want to twist the screws.

They stopped pillaging because it has not been possible for them to do so. The tiles are still in German culture.

Also, like pindicator said, we cannot do anything with CivFr unless they talk to us. Also, do you really think they'll still be at war in 20T? We don't even have a lot of evidence that it's a legitimate hot war - all they've done is light skirmishing and razed a minuscule border city. Basically, I get what you're saying, but I think your assumptions are pretty iffy. And like pindicator said - can't get a deal with a team that doesn't respond to us.

[darrelljs]

People's dislike of CFC seems to be leading to irrational decisions. I have no doubt if we lock them up with a turn 250 NAP that we've won the game.

Darrell

[NobleHelium]

Well from my observations of CFC's chariot moves, they are more interested in observing the war than pillaging. There are definitely tiles that they can pillage right now, they're just not near them and are hanging around the German capital instead. We'll see what happens when that goes down.

[Zargon]

They had the option of pillaging the floodplain town the turn we took Worms. They didn't. They had the option of also pillaging the village southwest of Worms the turn we took it and this turn too. Unless they're doing that with a late move, saying they've stopped is pretty accurate, for the moment.

War allies was perhaps inaccurate. But nevertheless, their actions towards CFC are perfect for us and no worse than we could hope for even if we were real allies. War on turn 175 seemed like a real possibility until CivFr and CFC went to war. I mean, they basically told us point blank that was their plan.

I'd prefer to sit on our hands and wait for CFC to come begging to us for a NAP. If we go to CFC again, I think we'll look desperate for peace. I'd rather give CFC the impression that we're perfectly willing to go to war on turn 175, since it seems unlikely that CFC is going to want to do that.

I mean, previously they were talking about such hilarious things as giving them land for a NAP. Their position has changed, but it hasn't changed that drastically, especially if we tip our hand and ask for the NAP extension first. We aren't yet in a good enough position to get a NAP on agreeable terms, and asking hurts our position.

Which isn't to say we shouldn't follow up with CivPlayers and/or Apolyton. We should. But probably wait 2 turns for the death of the German capital.

[Tyrmith]

People's dislike of CFC seems to be leading to irrational decisions. I have no doubt if we lock them up with a turn 250 NAP that we've won the game.

Darrell

This sums up my whole view to the discussion.

[pindicator]

People's dislike of CFC seems to be leading to irrational decisions. I have no doubt if we lock them up with a turn 250 NAP that we've won the game.

Darrell

This sums up my whole view to the discussion.

Yeah, victory over CFC is winning the game. I don't care who we partner with to that end, CFC included