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It might be waning interest in the game or real life stuff that's taking them long to respond.
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
July 27th, 2013, 15:18
(This post was last modified: July 27th, 2013, 15:19 by MWIN.)
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Is it worth paying UnivCiv for open borders? We can do resources and $$ also (if open borders is net positive).
Mwin
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We're actually in a funny position for Open Borders right now. Because we have the two overseas island cities, we already get two 2 commerce trade routes in every city, which is plenty in everything that's not coastal. And between WPC's 10 cities and CFC's 20 cities, we essentially have enough foreign cities to fill out our coastal Great Lighthouse extra routes. Meanwhile, because we have so many enormous cities, we actually give away more commerce than we get back from signing Open Borders. And keeping the borders closed makes it noticeably more difficult to spy on our team, especially for the three teams with heavy espionage investment (Apolyton, CivPlayers, and UniversCiv - none of whom have OB with us).
I actually think we want to keep borders closed as much as possible right now. Conversely, the other teams should be coming to us and begging us to Open Borders with them, since they'd get more income and they'll be able to spy/steal from us more easily. It's a weird position, and I don't think the other teams realize what they should be doing. They think closing the borders is hurting us... which it would be, except for those island cities. 
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Yes, there isn't really a need to prostrate before anyone to get more OBs right now. And we can settle more island cities...
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How much is the CFC NAP worth to us? I know we were saying before that if we got that it would secure us a win -- are we serious in that assessment? If so, what would we be willing to give up for it? No wait, let me phrase that better: What could we give to sweeten the deal that would still keep us in a dominant position? Could we say give $$$ to CFC or resources or even a *gasp* Great Person in order to secure a lengthy NAP?
Obviously we don't offer this right away but what is our upper limit?
Suffer Game Sicko
Dodo Tier Player
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I guess OB commerce is another plus Scooter can put in his friendship proposal for WPC.
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
July 28th, 2013, 13:17
(This post was last modified: July 28th, 2013, 13:18 by scooter.)
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Back to the drawing board. Chat with Yossarian of CFC:
Chat with CFC Wrote:scooter
Hey, I'm here now. you around?
YossarianLives
Yeah, how's it going?
scooter
Pretty good. Sorry to bug you about this again, but I wanted to check in on the status of the NAP proposal. We're just trying to plan, and whether or not a deal is in place affects things as you can imagine. 
YossarianLives
Yeah, definitely
So we voted on it, and the decision was split, but I we can't accept the NAP you proposed
The end of your war, with you guys getting all that land and WPC getting nothing, made it harder to get the NAP approved
A lot of the team sees a NAP as benefiting you a lot more, since you have more and better land to develop in peace. And we don't think you'd DOW us so we don't really need it to keep us safe
scooter
Do you have any sort of counter-proposal or any modifications on the proposal that you would suggest?
YossarianLives
I don't think anything that you guys would accept
I'm sure I could sell a NAP to the team if it came with extra land / cities for us, but you already said you're not interested in that
And I guess the rules don't really allow it (unless we do a coordinated war or something like that)
scooter
yeah the rules don't allow it. what about some sort of aid which helps you capture more?
I don't know if you have your sights set on any new land, but that's just an idea that popped into my head recently since we can draft muskets and soon rifles en masse
Like, I know you and Apolyton could probably carve up UCiv pretty easily, or you guys + CivPlayers would probably be enough to take down CivFr.
and targets that don't do a lot of diplo tend to be the best targets. hah
YossarianLives
Hmm, not sure that would work, especially if you have restrictions on who we could use them against
scooter
well, of course the restriction would be you can't use them against us
YossarianLives
lol, well I'm sure they would come along with a NAP
scooter
Is the WPC clause we stuck into the last offer a big issue?
YossarianLives
It wasn't the deal-breaker, but sure it only left us with tougher options to consider
scooter
because if it made you willing to make the deal, we would be willing to remove that part
YossarianLives
Well like I said, it was a split decision, so maybe that change would sway enough votes, but I kind of doubt it
Let me ask them team what exactly we would need to accept the deal
scooter
Ok, yeah that's fine. The issue is I'm having trouble discerning what is the primary sticking point from your team's perspective. Like - some things we'd be willing to flex on. Like I wrote in the email - it wasn't meant to be take it or leave it offer
YossarianLives
Like I said before I think it would want that peninsula between us, but I don't think we could make that work with you guys
scooter
so I'm having trouble gauging if we're actually close or not
YossarianLives
I think we're still kinda far apart...
scooter
yeah, I mean we have our Globe Theater there and it's key to a defensible border, so it's a valuable section for us
YossarianLives
scooter
yeah I understand. well look, city gifting is not allowed, but if you have a counter-offer of some sort, please let me know. We balked at the idea of resource gifts in our offer... We'd be willing to consider that if there was a longer NAP commitment involved
if that makes sense
that offer we sent was more of a short-term compromise from our perspective
YossarianLives
I'll see if there is anything we can come up with. I definitely get where you guys are coming from
We also see you guys losing OB with other teams, so again we feel like a NAP from us would be really valuable to you guys
scooter
Hah, we're actually wanting to start closing down borders with some of our neighbors so it's certainly not hurting us. we're kind of guessing you guys will bounce into mercantilism soon
YossarianLives
It's nice having Spiritual so we don't have to time our swaps with GA's, can just change the moment we need it
scooter
yeah definitely. SPI starts to be really awesome at this phase of the game
YossarianLives
Alright, well I've got to get going
scooter
yeah me too
YossarianLives
I'll try to get back to you soon with a counter
scooter
ok thanks, sounds good
So basically - us getting all the land from WPC shifted their team opinion into the NAP being too beneficial to us. Not the most shocking thing ever I guess. Anyway, it's in their court now, but for now we need to proceed as if we won't have a NAP with them on T175.
(Very busy today, but drafting something to UCiv and CivFr is next on the to-do list. Just wanted to wait until I got this answer from CFC first so I knew better where to go with it.)
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Let me pretend I'm playing WW here:
They are not negotiating in true faith. If they were really split on whether to take the NAP or not then incentives would help and be welcome. Instead he's using the "we are split" as an excuse to stifle discussion, not to encourage it or draw out proposals. If they were trying to pull more out of us for a deal then they would have offered something, either gradually something more or asking a ton and hoping to haggle us down. But they would have specific things that they want or ideas. The fact that they do not have any suggestions for continuing negotiations but yet do not want to break off all talks tells me they don't want a NAP unless we offer them something ridiculous in return.
Of course we should keep talking with them, but we need to be ready for war with CFC on t175.
Suffer Game Sicko
Dodo Tier Player
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Yeah, whatever. Fuck CFC is all I have to say.
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We need to assume that they won't sign the NAP and prepare for the worst case scenario. This means preparing defense of our eastern border in addition to the western border, along with trying (!) to do more diplo with CivFr and UCiv.
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