Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[antisocialmunky]

Its good to be back to the 'We have the diplo moral high ground because CFC won't let us win' status quo, I was wondering where all that silliness had migrated to People are passive like that because they don't see your offer as compelling and they don't feel like they need to agree to your proposals. Its like you have a okay mostly working car and you go to a car dealership to try out some cars because you think you might want to buy on in the future. You don't intend to buy one until the salesman offers you a deal you can't refuse on a new car.

If you guys have issues with CFC or the diplo, just assume its going to be Always Cold War for the rest of the game and treat every actual agreement as a major strategic coup. I think this game would drag on too long to be interesting without a sort of dog pile into consensus victory.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Its good to be back to the 'We have the diplo moral high ground because CFC won't let us win' status quo, I was wondering where all that silliness had migrated to People are passive like that because they don't see your offer as compelling and they don't feel like they need to agree to your proposals. Its like you have a okay mostly working car and you go to a car dealership to try out some cars because you think you might want to buy on in the future. You don't intend to buy one until the salesman offers you a deal you can't refuse on a new car.

If you guys have issues with CFC or the diplo, just assume its going to be Always Cold War for the rest of the game and treat every actual agreement as a major strategic coup. I think this game would drag on too long to be interesting without a sort of dog pile into consensus victory.

Stop trolling. No one is going all sanctimonious on this or having a meltdown because CFC won't give us a NAP.

They know the car is going to break down on T175. The analogy is flawed anyway because who cares if the other cars on the road are new? CFC is playing to win and have probably judged correctly that making a cozy border helps us more than it helps them in winning the game. This doesn't mean that they'll pile in on us with a million units, but that we'll have to plan for that eventuality just in case, because we're winning. Totally rational play.

I still hate those guys, but not because they won't sign a NAP right now.

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What would our borders in that area look like if we killed the CFC idiot border city (I refuse to learn its actual name)? Them having to slog through 2-3 extra tiles of culture would be a cheap way of gaining defensive depth for us, if we could alpha strike that city. How far out does our culture extend, and what kind of garrison have we seen by CFC in that region?

[novice]

It's hard for me to say how unrealistic this idea is, since I never log in to the game, but is there any way we can seize the initiative on t170 and threaten a few CivPlayers cities, strong-arming them into an extended NAP? It would be good to deploy our units in such a way that this is possible if CivPlayers are careless with their defenses.

One issue is that CivPlayers take their deals very seriously, so we might end up having to raze a few CP cities for no gain.

[antisocialmunky]

Stop trolling. No one is going all sanctimonious on this or having a meltdown because CFC won't give us a NAP.

They know the car is going to break down on T175. The analogy is flawed anyway because who cares if the other cars on the road are new?

But the car isn't going to break down on 175, because we aren't going to attack them at that point so functionally there's no change in status quo. Its more like the warranty of the car is running out if you want to continue the metaphor. They also probably correctly surmise that:

1) We are going to build ourselves into victory.
2) They aren't easy pickings.
3) Attack them would result in a third part victory.

So they don't care that much that the NAP is lapsing.

CFC is playing to win and have probably judged correctly that making a cozy border helps us more than it helps them in winning the game. This doesn't mean that they'll pile in on us with a million units, but that we'll have to plan for that eventuality just in case, because we're winning. Totally rational play.

I still hate those guys, but not because they won't sign a NAP right now.

Okay, I probably jumped the gun on complaining about people's attitude towards CFC this time so I apologize about that. But its annoying to watch people criticize CFC for making rational plays in this game or criticizing them for following the the letter of the rules. This team would have probably done the same thing in CFC's place.

So piling random hatred of them like this is just extremely annoying and unproductive to me because we would do the same thing in their place (though this team probably wouldn't ever get into the same situation in a balanced game because its so highly skilled).

Yeah, whatever. Fuck CFC is all I have to say.

[NobleHelium]

I'm not criticizing CFC for their choice. It doesn't mean I have to like them.

[antisocialmunky]

Apologies for misunderstanding you and overreacting then.

Why do people dislike CFC anyway? Other than having 2metra being offensive in the public thread and Sommer being irritating in the rules phase, the only in game issue has been the marble thing. I would dislike CivFR for their baffling diplo or WPC for making us partially responsible for their in game failures. CFC has just played a normal game, pretty responsive in diplo, with mutually beneficial agreements.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

For me, hating CFC is a matter of course. The world (not just civ) is a series of "us" vs. "them" factions. "We" are bound together against all of the "them"s who would oppose us in any field (politics, business, sport, etc). CFC is another team in this game, I personally have no real reason to like them. And then there's all the horse shit from the pre-game setup with Sommer and his cronies. The last (and probably most important) factor for me is that they are our neighbor and chief competitor in this game, so there are many more opportunities for meaningful antagonism than with, for example, CivFr, who are far away and apparently don't have enough fingers on anyone on their team to get to a keyboard and reply to a message.

That's just me, though.

Also, I'm not advocating a full-scale invasion of CFC, that would be insanely stupid. I am interested in knowing whether a small-scale, tactical attack against a border city could be done economically so as to give us better cultural control and a more secure defensive front (more tiles for CFC to wade through to get to us). If it looks like they're gearing up to invade us, it is a worthwhile proposition, if the cost is reasonable. If they do not appear to be gearing up for war with us, obviously there is no need for this.

[sooooo]

All of the above is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. Leave personalities (and cars) out of it.

I'm fairly sure that our T175 NAP will not be renewed. That doesn't mean that they will attack us on that date, but we need to monitor the situation and be prepared for the possibility that they will.

Let's just focus on how we are going to defend the border, with what troops etc and in what position.

@novice: Threatening civplayers would not be wise. In these demogames, people don't have much to lose and hence are not worried by threats. Teams in their position would rather go down fighting than be bullied into submission.

[Ruff_Hi]

What would our borders in that area look like if we killed the CFC idiot border city (I refuse to learn its actual name)? Them having to slog through 2-3 extra tiles of culture would be a cheap way of gaining defensive depth for us, if we could alpha strike that city. How far out does our culture extend, and what kind of garrison have we seen by CFC in that region?

I would estimate that the borders would look like this ...



That city is currently guarded by a lone archer. Starfall (our city in the area that is open to a surprise attack) is guarded by a lone C1 Shock Axe. Starfall expands its borders in another 9 turns (eot T172).

[Ruff_Hi]

Its T164. Am I right in thinking that we will be issuing a Marble Demand! early next turn?