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[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

Hm.

a) Have you included a happy-cap ? Because if you grow into unhappiness whipping makes more sense.

b) How do you value the thing you get that much earlier thanks to the whip? Say a settler 4-5 turns earlier can make the difference who gets the valuable spot. Or an Axe/warrior/Archer a turn sooner decides if your city gets razed or not etc.

c) Workers/Settler in general. Depending on your food+hammer output whipping can increase your overall growth (especially with a granary).

While I agree that there can be too much whipping I don't think that no whipping at all is superior.
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(September 10th, 2013, 09:46)Rowain Wrote: Hm.
Whoa! Feedback from a veteran so soon. smile

(September 10th, 2013, 09:46)Rowain Wrote: a) Have you included a happy-cap ? Because if you grow into unhappiness whipping makes more sense.
Happy cap not accounted for but could be used indirectely in choosing the tile food/ tile hammers to pick how big you want to grow.

Growing into unhappiness: yes the whip makes more sense but in RB-mod that introduces its own inefficiency in the reduced whip values especially if you have a high food surplus. In my starting example, if you whip only 1 pop every 10T you're still growing quite quickly.

I might try to incorporate multiple whips and RB-mod or not but I did answer my own question in a way. Without a granary production is pretty competitive. But once a granary comes into effect you need get to size 10+. It wasn't obvious to me whether a granary would benefit whipping or not whipping more but in my scenario it benefits whipping proportionally more. I guess that's intuitive in a way due to the increasing food requirements but I wanted to be sure.

(September 10th, 2013, 09:46)Rowain Wrote: b) How do you value the thing you get that much earlier thanks to the whip? Say a settler 4-5 turns earlier can make the difference who gets the valuable spot. Or an Axe/warrior/Archer a turn sooner decides if your city gets razed or not etc.
That's a pretty unfair question for a spreadsheet. :LOL:

But not whipping = more stored hammers so that's a bonus consideration. Whipping has the early production bonus; not whipping has the superior total output over time (case depending) + more emergency response ability.

(September 10th, 2013, 09:46)Rowain Wrote: c) Workers/Settler in general. Depending on your food+hammer output whipping can increase your overall growth (especially with a granary).

While I agree that there can be too much whipping I don't think that no whipping at all is superior.
Right. Its just that I had been in several discussion where it seemed that it was automatic that everyone would whip. I was pretty sure from my own SP results (inspired by T-Hawk's PB7 advice to Sunrise) that it wasn't so clear cut.

I think that I could say pretty decisively that in mid-to-late game when you have a high happy + more productive tiles that not whipping is strictly superior with a 50T lens. Master Krill in PB5 had the +2 charismatic happy + the spiritual Caste to realize that advantage earlier than most others would be able to.

In this game RB-mod's +1 Workshops + Spiritual's access to caste means that production is pretty compelling if we can get the happy cap. Having said that I was playing around with our city4 and we'd need to get to size 13 in 52T before no-whip dominated. bang
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Basically, I think cities should grow as fast as they can, up to the happy cap, and up to how many productive tiles they can work at a time, whichever is lower.

If they're not working improved tiles, I think it's a good idea to whip workers (especially as EXP where hammers contribute more to them than food does). They accelerate future growth at all stages.

The math is all "it depends" but I don't think any city that could configure itself with at least +5-6 food surplus shouldn't do so.

An simplified example: say a city is 0-growth at size 6 with a plains hill mine. In ten turns that mine contributes 40 hammers.

If it has a 3f farm available, it could work that instead, produce 30 food over those ten turns, grow and whip to size 6 again (this costs 15 food with a granary), and spend the extra 15 food as hammers (by working on a worker or settler). So it gets 45 hammers out of its 6th pop point instead of 40.

This is just a heuristic to show that a 3f tile plus the whip is clearly better than a 4h tile for raw hammers if we have to choose one or the other! It might be that we want to grow up further past size 6-7. It's also true that it's even better to work the 3f tile only when growing, and then switch to the 4h tile when actually building the settler or worker.

(Whip-cycling cities also effectively lowers the happy cap by 1 turn, another complication.)

In practice we really want cities to be much higher than +3 food, which even further tilts the scales from hammer tiles (like PH mines) to food tiles.

I suspect this general strategy is pretty good:

1. At low size work basically as high food as possible. (If it's simply not possible I made a bad settlement choice, or indeed I shouldn't whip as much).
2. Working an unimproved tile? Whip a worker, or I should have manage existing workers better.
3. At the happy cap? Go into a whip / grow cycle, whipping every 10 turns ideally. (Maybe find a way to increase the happy cap. lol )
4. Only when cities get really large (>10 for sure) does it make sense to consider stabilizing cities at lower growth values, favouring high production tiles over food tiles.

Now, admittedly RBMod changes the calculations in favour of production, because 10 turn 2x-whip or even combinations of 2x and 3x whips are fairly godly in BtS for really high food cities. So in BtS there's more reason to want extremely high food cities, even +10 or more surplus.

But even in RBMod I suspect it's a mistake to stabilize pop for a city that could be adding on a 10 turn 1-pop whip cycle to whatever else it's doing.
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Absolutely, these rules of thumb are good. But I wanted something that would help with the specifics including terrain specifics. Because the answer to 'whip or not' is going to be a function of terrain.

To be fair this is only useful as a tool for production cities, since total hammers is the measure. But even in its basic form its useful in evaluating city locations. I've attached a sheet with SilverCity vs N-5W of cap and it shows 100 - 120H advantage by T50. So this helps to compare against the value of the silver commerce.

It also shows that a 10T whipping-cycle provides a 50H advantage by T20 but that advantage is gone by either the late T20s or early T30s.

I'm going to have to *actually* install the game to see if it works exactly like this or if I've missed anything. I'll also have to add in multi-pop whips and mabye forges before its really any good.


Attached Files
.xlsx   Silver vs Orange Square.xlsx (Size: 72.12 KB / Downloads: 1)
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We're going to have loads of fun when you learn I have my eye on the very short sighted spot 3W (or maybe 3W1N) of Turandot to claim the silver. And then to get the wheat with something else.




Retep pillaged our connection so we appear to have a sort of uneasy de-facto truce. Maybe he's figured out this game could, like, continue for a while... Still, units could come out any time. That staging tile is going to be a pain in the butt forever, and has the potential to hit Barbiere out of the fog immediately with 2-movers.

The next settler comes out in 4 turns, helped by a chop. Barbiere will finish a worker it had already put chop hammers into, in 2 turns. The axe to the west ate a wolf, and will now change places with an archer as recommended (crossing N of the mini-lake).

Sorry, but Carmen is going to be only cottage paradise, I don't see a need for a single farm there. Working 5 fp cottages and the horse would put it at +7 food, which is tons. Health may be an issue which as Exp probably just means we have to road some of our resources eventually. lol




He's 1 axe of power up on us, and his power didn't change this turn either.
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(September 10th, 2013, 10:55)MindyMcCready Wrote:
(September 10th, 2013, 09:46)Rowain Wrote: Hm.
Whoa! Feedback from a veteran so soon. smile

While it is true that I'm a dinosaur on this forum I'm by no means a veteran in civ4 not in the way the term veteran is used here wink.

(September 10th, 2013, 10:55)MindyMcCready Wrote:
(September 10th, 2013, 09:46)Rowain Wrote: b) How do you value the thing you get that much earlier thanks to the whip? Say a settler 4-5 turns earlier can make the difference who gets the valuable spot. Or an Axe/warrior/Archer a turn sooner decides if your city gets razed or not etc.
That's a pretty unfair question for a spreadsheet. :LOL:

I know but Serdoa for example does his microplans via spreadsheets eek

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Another difficulty I hadn't really appreciated is that I don't know if we can or should actually improve the flood plain 2S1W of Barbiere without peace. The river isolates it from us and means retep can just move an axe and pillage it, and the only way we could defend it would be to leave an excessive force there. With the FP useless, it may mean I just made yet another wasted worker turn, sigh. I put one turn of road S of Barbiere with an eye to finishing the road and then starting to farm the fp next turn, guarded by an axe.

I'm not sure if I'd take a peace offer now, but I'm also really not sure that we don't gain more from peace at this moment than he does. The biggest advantage to war right now is that we're making it really hard for him to settle N of his capital.
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(September 10th, 2013, 15:19)WilliamLP Wrote: We're going to have loads of fun when you learn I have my eye on the very short sighted spot 3W (or maybe 3W1N) of Turandot to claim the silver. And then to get the wheat with something else.

Hopefully at some point you'll say why you think that its better and maybe post your intended dotmap.

That was the original production spot when we were first uncovering the map, so I'm not surprised. I am interested to hear why you think that'll be a better city.

Its not like I didn't compare those cities before recommending the silver or (ouch) 1N of silver.
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(September 10th, 2013, 16:19)Rowain Wrote: I know but Serdoa for example does his microplans via spreadsheets eek

Right, but this isn't a planning tool but more of a location scenario tool. My spreadsheet takes it as a given that the tiles will be improved and pays no attention to worker demands or builds so it couldn't replace carefully thought out plans in any way.

Strictly a way to evaluate the production over time for one-spot or the other and in a whip/no-whip context. I did build in 2 and 3-pop whips as well as a modifier for Rb-mod or not this morning. BUT,...I haven't actually tested to see if the game runs this way or if I've missed something.

Don't sell yourself short on the veteran status. I'm thinking in Civ3 terms where the top dogs are elite, you still get veteran status. But the draftees in PB11 are getting pretty good (Oxy doesn't post enough).
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(September 10th, 2013, 15:19)WilliamLP Wrote: Sorry, but Carmen is going to be only cottage paradise, I don't see a need for a single farm there. Working 5 fp cottages and the horse would put it at +7 food, which is tons. Health may be an issue which as Exp probably just means we have to road some of our resources eventually. lol

I'm good with this. What's the focus for your gold-corn city?

Is it safe to assume that city #4 will also be a commerce city while gimping our production city? lol
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