[SPOILERS] Margarita and the Lurkers

[Maga_R]

Ah, the naming scheme is initially "Master and Margarita" (hope you will get to read your copy ), soon to be expanded to Russian culture (books and my favorite songs)

I was considering those names:

Capitol: Shady Quarters (book's Nehoroshaya Kvartira)
#2 city: Patriarch's Ponds (also book location, that would be Jovan's city on the other side of the lake)

Annushka (worker) and Behemoth (scout) are also Master and Margarita characters

Other ideas for city names:

War and Peace (border city )
Crime and Punishment - unfortunately too long
Three Sisters
Dark Eyes

Save our Souls - great Vysotsky's song and name for a "Pink dot" city :bigrin:

More Vysotsky's song ideas:

Unruly horses
Wolf hunt
Magadan
I do not like
The Muse

I we ever conquer some cities I was thinking about a less cryptic - and sweeter naming scheme. To name them after my favorite desserts :

Creme brule
Tarte Tatin
Tiramisu
Chocolate mousse
Grapefruit souffle
Raspberry parfait
Mango lassi
Coconut macaroons

I have to stop now as I am gonna make of of these

[Ichabod]

Hi Ichabod, thank you for logging in and taking screenshots .

Micro plan is to settle Jovan's city T42 (T43 if we are unlucky), then city near gold (hopefully finding a food resource nearby), then 1 NW (not NE) of the corn.

My reasons are that Jovan's city - although farther than Corn - will have two overlapping, improved food resources and as such could be bring up to speed in no time. It will be settled on a plain hill and will soon become nice production and commerce center. On my way there- settler will be always escorted out of borders - I will scout around corn, hopefully finding a seafood resource. Worker will be a cottage waiting for a settler, thus pottery. And I will start to build Great Wall in Jovan's city right away - I know it is somewhat crazy but will save us a ton of hammers and hassle with barbarian defense. And even without chopping or whipping, we finish it T66, although I would likely chop to build it even faster. Great will also give us an early Great Spy, which is awesome, especially that espionage is only a bit nerfed in this game . I also want espionage the way it is, we have NAP with Native Americans until T100, so I am not particularly interested in their graphs. On the other hand, I am extremely interested in Lord Parkin's research - not only him being apparently the most dangerous opponent and a very good and experienced player, but also the only IND civ on the map.

Tech plan is Pottery -> Masonry (needed for hamman & GW) -> writing -> Mathematics - > Bronze Working

Based on Eggheads informations, our Eastern neighbors (not met yet) are Yuufo and Bisons, hopefully we will get a NAP form them and will not need BW early. Both capitol and cities #2 and #2 will not benefit form whipping much.

So basically the plan is to unlock our awesome UB - Hamman - asap . I was not expected horses on the map, since we are so close to each other and there are no natural barriers against rushes. But since Orgynized had horses 5 tiles away from capitol, we likely have them close, too. so it can be handy for barbarian defense or further scouting.

Scouting plan has been somewhat crazy, too - to meet as many civs as possible early on, both for known tech bonus - which is considerable - and for better understanding of geopolitics and alliance chances. So far it has not been working badly, we have been already getting +1 beaker form it on AH, and the scoutess should be back in time to help with settler's escort and then would scout around our capitol, looking for good city locations. If still alive afterwards, she will go North to trace the coast of the Northern "Big Water" and meet civs in the Northern hemisphere that are probably about 20 tiles from our capitol (horizontal distances are around 14 tiles).

In terms of our Western neigbors, the good news it is not and Aggresive Rome. Potential problem is that Yuufo moved - most likely 2 tiles - before settling. Hopefully not in our direction. Anyway, he is IMP, so there maybe competition for the land earlier than with other neighbors.

Well, I disagree with quite a bit of these decisions. But, since this is a learning game, I better try to explain my reasoning behind things than just throw them out there.

Reharding tech path: I don't think beelining maths for the sole reasoning of unlocking hammans is a good idea. Hammans are nice builds, but they are not a good building on a vacuum. The extra happiness from hammans won't do a thing for us until you are at the max happy cap of your cities. And that's not a common thing so early in the game, especially considering we can use slavery. Besides, hammans are very expensive, to the point of being prohibitively expensive for the early game.

To make a simple comparision, both a settler and a hamman cost 100 hammers. The hamman gives 2 happy and 2 health. The settler gives at least 4 happy and quite some health, when you get a new city - plus all the production of the city.

So, I think there's not much point in rushing for a building that we will probably not build in the foreseeable turns. Hammans are going to be useful when we don't have anymore land to settle, but before that, settlers and workers are more useful.

Delaying BW is also a bad thing. Both slavery and chopping are massive abilities, because they make everything happen faster and one of Civ key points is snowball. A whipped settler will get a city some 5 turns earlier, which will mean another city gets settled 5 turns earlier and it keeps on going. Same thing with chops. In a way, you never need to whip things, you can always finish them with normal production. But the food to hammer conversion of whipping is incredibly good and it makes everything go faster. I'd go for BW even before pottery.

Besides, we can't wait until turn 66 to have some sort of barb/opponent defense. We need at least the ability to build axes and spears.

---

Regarding where to settle the second city, I think you are underestimating the importance of settling cities faster. There's a massive difference between settling a city a turn and 5 turns later. That lake makes Jovan's city a pain to get to and a pain to improve - you can't "share" workers between it and the Capital. I agree it's a better spot than the corn if we just consider the placement. But considering worker labor, timings and short term benefits overall, I think the corn spot wins. And though it shares two food resources with the Capital, it's likely that the Capital will work them most of the time.

---

I have more comments to make, but I think that's quite a bit for now. I think trying to go for the corn city and BW next in the sandbox and comparing results with what you have now might be a good idea.

[Ichabod]

Ah, the naming scheme is initially "Master and Margarita" (hope you will get to read your copy ), soon to be expanded to Russian culture (books and my favorite songs)

I was considering those names:

Capitol: Shady Quarters (book's Nehoroshaya Kvartira)
#2 city: Patriarch's Ponds (also book location, that would be Jovan's city on the other side of the lake)

Annushka (worker) and Behemoth (scout) are also Master and Margarita characters

Other ideas for city names:

War and Peace (border city )
Crime and Punishment - unfortunately too long
Three Sisters
Dark Eyes

Save our Souls - great Vysotsky's song and name for a "Pink dot" city :bigrin:

More Vysotsky's song ideas:

Unruly horses
Wolf hunt
Magadan
I do not like
The Muse

I we ever conquer some cities I was thinking about a less cryptic - and sweeter naming scheme. To name them after my favorite desserts :

Creme brule
Tarte Tatin
Tiramisu
Chocolate mousse
Grapefruit souffle
Raspberry parfait
Mango lassi
Coconut macaroons

I have to stop now as I am gonna make of of these

From those, I only read War and Peace and Crime and Punishment. War and Peace is probably my favorite book and Tolstoi probably my favorite writer.

[Maga_R]

From those, I only read War and Peace and Crime and Punishment. War and Peace is probably my favorite book and Tolstoi probably my favorite writer.

So we can do more Tolstoi . Anna Karenina is an obvious candidate, although I do not know if it is a good name for a city . You do not speak Russian?

I have learnt something very interesting from diplo with Eggheads - they say every team has gold nearby, as we do, and in two cases they saw there is always a grassland cow in such a location that both cow and gold are in city's first ring. That makes gold even stronger choice for city #3.

Eggheads also confirmed that Yuufo - our yet unmet Western neighbor - moved towards us to settle his capitol . They also say he 1-pop whipped his IMP settler this turn and they should see where he would settle. The only good news is that Yuufo's gold is not towards us. Ah, and they say Yuufo's team was not very communicative, perhaps because they are francophones.

[retep]

I still here, but I haven't really comment much because I don't really know how to write without sound as an pedantic bastard, but I give a shot now.

To further some of what Ichabod had said, you don't normally need aqueducts (hammans) until the industrial era and since this PB games don't really last that long , you can pass a entire game without building one. The happy come for Monarchy and trade happy resources, which I think is even easier to get in a diplo game, and you normally don't need the health, since with resources and buildings (granaries) you can get easily 12-13 health.

BW is probably the more important tech of the game, using chops and slavery is too powerful to be delayed for too long.
Going for the Great Wall is crazy indeed, a really bad idea. Not sure how the rules are about espionage, but even with full espionage The GS won't help that much, and the best way to avoid barbs is just a hand of well positioned warriors, which can be later use as military police.

First you don't need roads to get TR for a second city in the PH just fishing, having say this I totally agree that the corn spot is better for a second city.

[Maga_R]

I still here, but I haven't really comment much because I don't really know how to write without sound as an pedantic bastard, but I give a shot now.

To further some of what Ichabod had said, you don't normally need aqueducts (hammans) until the industrial era and since this PB games don't really last that long , you can pass a entire game without building one. The happy come for Monarchy and trade happy resources, which I think is even easier to get in a diplo game, and you normally don't need the health, since with resources and buildings (granaries) you can get easily 12-13 health.

BW is probably the more important tech of the game, using chops and slavery is too powerful to be delayed for too long.
Going for the Great Wall is crazy indeed, a really bad idea. Not sure how the rules are about espionage, but even with full espionage The GS won't help that much, and the best way to avoid barbs is just a hand of well positioned warriors, which can be later use as military police.

First you don't need roads to get TR for a second city in the PH just fishing, having say this I totally agree that the corn spot is better for a second city.

Hi retep,

glad to see you back, I was about to email you .

I know I will get TR with second city anyway if their borders will touch, I will just build a road for two turns as worker has nothing else to do.

I do not agree on hamman, it was the reason I chose Ottomans and I hope to put it into good use . Also Ottomans come with best (most expensive) techs in game and allow early pottery, so being financial on top of everything, I would like to use it. I initially thought about second city near corn, but Jovan convinced me to go PH near NW cow and my test show it is really a good spot.

This game is almost full espionage on - the only things banned are hostile civic and religion switching mission. Early Great Spy would be huge - incredible scouting unit, plus couple free techs.

As I said, hamman allows to delay monarchy a bit - and especially this map does not seem happy-rich. So far I so only gold and no other pre-Calendar happiness resources, so happy cap maybe very limiting, especially with whipping. Orgynized mentioned seeing silver somewhere, too, but that is it. No hunting happy resources, no gems. Getting trade routes will not be that easy, either, not many long rivers and we are on a small lake, not a coast.

[Maga_R]

Turn 27 demo update

Technology overview:

1. Orgynized: Fishing + Agriculture, Hunting (T7), Animal Husbandry (T16), Mining (T22 )
2. Care Bears: Mysticism + Mining, Agriculture (T10), Bronze Working (T23)
3. Margarita: Agriculture + Wheel, Fishing (T12), Mining (T23), Animal Husbandry (T26)
4. Yossadorn: Agriculture + Mysticism, Mining (T8 ), Bronze Working? (T24)
5. Eagles & Condors: Fishing + Agriculture, Animal Husbandry (T14), Mining (T21)
6. Dinosaurs: Fishing + Mining, Agriculture (T10), Animal Husbandry (T26)
7. BowsAi: Agriculture + Hunting, Animal Husbandry (T12), Mining (T19)
8. EggHeads: Mysticism + Wheel, Hunting (T7), Animal Husbandry(T20), Fishing ? T(27)
9. Gladiator's Glory: Fishing + Mining, Agriculture (T18), The Wheel? (T24), Bronze Working ? (T27)
10. Cannibals: Agriculture + Wheel, Hunting (T6), Animal Husbandry (T17), Archery? (T27)

* Yossadorn got BW, Gladiators got a 4k technology most likely (=The Wheel), CRE civs (me & Eggheads got land scores T23, the rest would get them T25, Yuufo T26).

* Yuufo, dinosaur and gladiator glory built warriors

* Yuufo revolted to slavery and 1-pop whipped his IMP settler. Likely to settle new city T28. He is our neighbor and moved 2 tiles towards us before settling .

City sizes:

1. Orgynized: 2 (T22)
2. Care Bears: 2 (T19) -> 3 (T23) -settler whip> 2 (T26)
3. Margarita: 2(T23) -> 3(T27)
4. Yossadorn: 2 (T21)
5. Eagles & Condors: 2 (T18) -> 3 (T22) -> 4 (T26)
6. Dinosaurs: 2 (T12)
7. BowsAi: 2 (T21) -> 3 T(24)
8. EggHeads: 2 (T19)
9. Gladiator's Glory: 2 (T22)
10. Cannibals: 2 (T22)

Neighborhood watch:

Eagles builts: Worker (T12), Workboat (T25), Warrior (to be finished T29)
Orgy Nized: Workboat (T8), Worker (T18), Warrior (to be finished T30)

Because we now research Pottery - for which we have both pre-requisites, we are really doing well in terms of GNP, we are true #1 even after subtracting +2 CRE bonus

   

EDIT: Turns 28 & 29 update

* Yuufo settled a city 2-3 tiles from his capitol T28
* Eagles grow to s5 T29 and completed a warrior
* Orgynized build settler at size 3, to be finished T34-35 (ours will be ready T37)

[Maga_R]

So I got demos a bit wrong: both Cannibals and Gladiators grown to size 4 this turn.

Also looks like Lord Parkin finished warrior last turn and somehow with overflow has 24 hammers into something, must be worker or settler. I will see graphs next turn, but it is not clear to me why there was not a turn with 0 hammers in the box?

I am sure I did math correctly, their production was 12 hammers T27 and 24 this turn (T28). They cannot whip or chop yet and cannot produce 12 hammers per turn, so must be a worker or settler.

EDIT: I see I did not explained properly why Orgynized jump from 12 hammers in the box to 24 hammers in the box was surprising for me. So here is their productions since I have started to see it:

T21 3 (non worker/settler)
T22 4 (non worker/settler)
T23 5 (non worker/settler)
T24 6 (non worker/settler)
T25 7 (non worker/settler)
T26 11 (some micro trick?)
T27 12 (non worker/settler)
T28 24 (worker/settler) warrior finished?
T29 36 (worker/settler)

[Maga_R]

Ichabod and Retep, I hear you on racing to Bronze Working being a standard strategy. But I do not see it as that useful in our current situation. If I would go with BW instead of Pottery, worker could only road waiting for settler, instead of doing a cottage, too. We also do not want to whip our capitol now, it will soon work 4 nicely improved tiles and we have only one happy resource pre calendar so far (and will take a while to connect it). Chopping now (pre-math) and with capitol currently building settler in 6 turns does not seem worth delaying pottery.

My plan now is to successively build cottages as capitol will share other resources and grow, so we will always aim to work only improved tiles. Unfortunately, in capitol we can only build non-riverside cottages - but just after working them for 10 turns, they will be almost as good as riverside ones. So this is one of the reasons I want to start them early and generally our civ is ideally positioned for early cottages an dit was one of the reasons I liked it.

I think we should also get writing soon - again, we will have two pre-requisites, so we can research it soon. Writing unlocks our cheap building - library. Too early to build it in the capitol - which will be our settler/worker pump - but gold city (#3) will likely generate a serious commerce very soon - riverside gold mine itself will be 9 coins, plus we should be able to do some riverside cottages there and there should be a cow to grow over them soon.

Thoughts?

[Maga_R]

We have somehow met Yuufo this turn - he is our Western neighbor who settled towards us on the first turn.

Here are the results of my crazy scouting