RB Pitboss #2 [SPOILERS] - Peter of Byzantium

[regoarrarr]

I'm actually not that worried about Shaka of Rome because I think that it's almost TOO over the top. People (neighbors) will be wary of that, and it's early enough that people should be strong enough to band together.

Or.... if he's our neighbor, we can always use him as "the heavy" to attack a mutual neighbor :-D

[darrelljs]

And although I continue to be misinformed about this, the starting techs go with the Civ, so we start with
* The Wheel
* Mysticism

We're the only civ that starts with that combo.

Not really my favorite starting techs, but such a small price to play for Cataphracts and Hippodromes .

Darrell

[regoarrarr]

And just to be complete, I did find that if anyone chooses Arabia, they also get The Wheel and Mysticism, not that it really matters

In more important news, 5/10 civs have been picked (Byz, Rome, Mali, Zulu, Inca) and only us and Inca start with Mysticism. Hopefully we're the only ones which would give us a pretty good shot at one of the early 2 religions.

[darrelljs]

You will not BELIEVE the nerdery I am going to unveil as I detail out this plan a bit more in the upcoming days

Let the nerdery begin :neenernee!

Okay, here are all the techs we need to get to Cataphracts:



Technically, the Fishing route to Pottery is 20 beakers cheaper, but I'm sure we'll need Agriculture, while Fishing is only likely. The given costs are currently unweighted for difficulty, map size, etc. Once we have more info on the actual map I'll update using these forumulae.

Its worth noting that Mathematics -> Currency is almost as expensive as Machinery. However, in addition to the economic boost the tech gives, check out the GP tech preferences. A Great Merchant's fifth priority is Metal Casting . As regoarrarr stated, we can tech Currency, chop/whip a Marketplace, run two Philosophical Merchant specialists, and bulb Metal Casting in a scant 9 turns. A Great Engineer's favorite tech is Machinery, so we can then chop/whip a Forge, run an Engineer specialist, and a less scanty 34 turns later bulb Machinery. During the turns it takes to do this, we'll knock out Iron Working, HBR, and Feudalism (okay maybe not). Then its a slow research to Guilds and .

We have a few prerequisite options. Basically every prereq you have beyond one ends up as a 1.2 beaker multiplier. One extra prereq decreases the beaker cost by 17% and two extra prereqs decrease the beaker cost by 31%.

• On the Machinery line, Fishing is the only extra prereq (Pottery). If we have seafood and grain at the capital, this is probable.
  
  
• Animal Husbandry gets a discount for Hunting and Agriculture. Again, dependent on the resources at our capital but less likely.
  
  
• Alphabet is a prereq for Currency, but with no tech trading the cost is not worth delaying Cataphracts.
  
  
• Monarchy gets a discount for Monotheism, if we take the Polytheism route to Priesthood it is something to consider (especially in the unlikely event we have Stone or Marble).
  
  
• Writing gets a bonus for Animal Husbandry and Pottery. We need both techs, and unless we want to try Oracle -> Feudalsim I suggest we get all three prereqs.
  

Okay, so why Meditation to Priesthood?

1. It's 20 beakers cheaper.
   
   
2. It opens up Philosophy. Coupled with Drama (desired for our UB), we can bulb Philosophy. It will be hard to win the Liberalism run with Liz out there, but without this you can forget it.
   

Why Polytheism to Priesthood?

1. It leads to Monotheism, which could give us a 50 beaker discount on Monarchy. Of course you are 20 in the hole already, and Masonry/Monotheism is another 200, so net it is a 170 beaker detour to pick up Organized Religion, Judaism (possible) and the ability to build Quarries.
   
   
2. It opens up Literature, which is great for the Heroic Epic, National Epic and Great Libary.
   

Any thoughts?

Darrell

[regoarrarr]

Ah Darrell you caught me in mid-email-composition.

Okay. Clearly I have been hanging around the Project Managers at work too much, because I have created a MS Project project plan for "Operation kill kill kill with Catapharacts" (perhaps a better name needs to be picked?)

I'll post it when I flesh it out a bit, but for now, I have worked on techs. Obviously we don't know what our tech pace will be in-game, but I have made some estimates based on base beakers.

So I am calculating the following as ESSENTIAL techs, along with their base beakers, and what I have put down as the estimated time to research them. Annoyingly MS Project won't let me put in years as the task duration, so I am starting on 1/1/2010 and using days as turns.

Meditation or Poly (100-Poly) - 10
Mining (50) - 6
BW (120) - 12
Hunting (40) - 5
Priesthood (60) - 5
IW (200) - 16
Monarchy (300) - 14
Guilds (1000) - 25
Writing (120) - 6
Math (250) - 14
Currency (400) - 18
Feudalism (700) - 20
Archery (60) - 6
HBR (250) - 15
Pottery (80) - 8
Agriculture (60) - 6

In addition to bulbing MC and Machinery. I went mostly on base beakers, but also based on timing since of course, the sooner we research a tech, the worse our total empire beakers will be. Also, I tried to account for techs where we would have multiple pre-reqs. If you have comments on tech order / durations, feel free to make suggestions. Once we get the actual game, I'll update this. It currently projects Guilds to be done on June 23rd, err Day 174 err Turn 174. I don't know if that's good or not.

I will also try to use this to flesh out city builds and such so that we can ensure we have the appropriate Barracks and Stables and such (As well as the Market / Forge whips).

So techs that we are not researching till after Guilds (obviously if we need to research any of them beforehand, it will delay Guilds)

Fishing (we could research that instead of Agriculture as a pre-req to Pottery)
Sailing
Masonry
the other of Med / Poly
Monotheism
Compass
Aesthetics
Alphabet
Calendar
Construction
Code of Laws
Civil Service
Drama

Sufficient nerdery?

[regoarrarr]

Okay so my (120 second delayed) thoughts on darrell's email are to see how many civs start with Mysticism before we make the Med / Poly dilemma. Currently we have one (Inca) who is probably less likely to go religion right out of the gate maybe?

If there's just the 2 of us, then the standard thought would be that we should go Hinduism because if we miss then we can take Judaism. Of course if they think that too, then we should go Buddhism. But if THEY think that too, then... etc.

I think that we're going to have to bail on Liberalism if we are going the early Guilds route. And by the time we are wanting to get into the Drama / Philo race, Med will be a 1t tech.

[regoarrarr]

Speaker / Sullla just took India for a 3rd civ with mysticism

[darrelljs]

Ah, MS project, how I miss thee. We moved to a different scheduling tool about 4-5 years ago.

Im thinking we won't be going for a religion out of the gate either? In SP at least I'd go Worker first and with these starting techs at least one, maybe two worker techs before even thinking about a religion. We need to figure out the opportunity cost, which won't be possible until we see the map. Its moot if sunrise says you have to build deterrent Warriors to start the game, of course.

I am willing to bet Sulla will try and grab one of the first religions.

Darrell

[regoarrarr]

Agreed that I think Sullla will try to grab a religion. And you are right that we can assess the opportunity cost once we see the map.

I also want us to consider some of the other Guilds options, besides the one we originally talked about (which I have labeled Option A)

Keeping in mind tech costs (not scaled) of
Math: 250
Currency: 400
MC: 450
Machinery: 700

Option A: Beeline Currency, whip market, hire 2 merchants, bulb Metal Casting, whip forge, bulb Machinery
Option B: Beeline Currency, whip market, hire 2 merchants, bulb Metal Casting, slow build Machinery (should be less than the 34 turns a GE will take, even considering that delays some of our other techs like Feudalism)
Option C: Use first GP on a Sci for an Academy, 2nd on a merchant for MC, slow-tech Machinery (faster with our Academy)
Option D: Use first GP on a Sci for an Academy, slow-research MC (maybe instead of Currency?), 2nd on the engineer for Machinery
Option E: Slow-tech MC (maybe instead of Currency), first GP on an Engineer for Machinery (17 turns instead of 34)
Option F: Oracle MC, first GP on an engineer for Machinery, 2nd on a scientist for an Academy

And possibly others

[sunrise089]

I agree that Sullla will try for a religion.

Re: warrior at start, it's really a meta-question. How soon will another team be willing to kill someone? If they get lucky with their starting warrior that ends the game pretty early for us. Since huts are off if we go worker first I'd just like to keep our starting warrior at home.

With Zulu and Rome out there we need to determine whether we have copper reasonably early. If we don't, archery becomes important. Hopfully by the time LiPing could actually field Praetorians we'll have either copper or iron settled ourselves.