(September 17th, 2013, 08:02)MindyMcCready Wrote: Oh, man just don't go there guy. Audacious and all but at least I understand why he's trying to do it unlike Bacchus.
Yeah, I guess. I just don't understand how he thinks he can defend it, so isolated from the rest of his empire, and the distance costs will really hurt him, at least in the short run.
Quote:1. OPERATION CLEAR SIGNAL:
DOW him right now to let him know exactly how we feel about that attempted plant. He might back off. While this would be ideal for our city plant, it let's him off the hook which I'd probably prefer to hurt him the 180H if we could.
DOW makes trade routes useless for about 50 turns or so after peace (no better than domestic). That might not be a consideration though. I already played, and he has been consistently playing after us, so he may settle right now.
Quote:2. OPERATION WIN-WIN
Let him settle. Then offer 12 gold per turn in exchange for the city while we simultaneously show up with our assembled axes/units. We might get to keep our axes + the city and Ichabod's feather's might not be so ruffled.
No gold trading is possible without Currency. This kills complicated plans.
Quote:5. OPERATION STRAIGHT UP
Go in fast with the archer + 2 quechas. A 0XP archer has 40% odd on a C1 warrior in city with hill. 74% odds on the warrior if we can catch him before the city is settled.
Yeah, if there's a tactical way to raze the city I wouldn't hesitate. I screwed up, and could have moved an axe from the fork tile to Carmen before noticing the settler, but I actually moved it the other way for no good reason, just thinking "have to put more stuff around Barbiere".
Quote:We really need the terrace in Carmen. That city's really vunerable until we get culture. Do we have any alternatives? And our requirements will depend on what option you'd lean towards.
I agree after thinking about it. 60 hammers is a lot to get with no production tiles in first ring. I wasn't counting on Carmen needing a lot of slave production, so it's probably going to get those couple farms now after all.
Quote:Remember that Ichabod has horses and that Chariots would be his fastest way to reinforce the city. I'd start moving the spear in that direction.
Ah but he doesn't have horses yet. He has to settle another city for them.
Quote:Yeah, I don't doubt that Cheetah would take a swipe at us the way this game is going despite us being natural allies against Ichabod. It's that darn score of yours. In retrospect Bacchus probably just looked at the score and said 'that's the guy to kill' without assessing our ability to grow and hold land relative to Ichabod. If not for his warrior it would be pretty clear what we need to do. There's nothing that we can do to force 10T of peace is there? DOW Cheetah and immediately offer peace? Offer 1 gold for peace? Will that bind him?
Again, no gold can change hands before currency. I think anyone would take a swipe at a naked settler - you get a free worker out of it.
Anyway, I'm with you that Carmen can't afford to whip an axe before terrace. If Ichabod settles where he stands it's 8 tiles from our capital and 10 tiles from his, and I intend to throw the kitchen sink at that area if he settles now. It's worse if he wants our tile, but I think where he stands makes more sense for him.
Yeah, no Currency really sucks. And that damn Cheetah warrior really sucks. Never before has a single war from a peaceful explorer nation so impacted a war that hasn't happened yet. :LOL: There, I've added something to the drama arts!
You're right that he'll likely settle on the plains hill. Even if he was going for the desert hill, he'd probably change his mind when he sees our military in the area.
BUT,....
If he moves to the desert hill for the 1st ring awesomeness, if we also move onto the desert hill and DOW who gets teleported?
IF he settles the plains hill. We DOW and move to the desert hill WITH THE SETTLER. Its an all or nothing play here. We take our shot at the warrior. If we win and raze we immediately plant our city. Our city is safe for 1T from Cheetah's warrior since he'll teleport out and our other warrior is 1T behind.
Almost certainly, Ichabod is doing the military congo-line up so we'd need to redirect troops from Carmen into gold-corn to stop a vengeful counter attack. We should probably send that warrior 4S-1W of Carmen onto the forest or the plains hill SSWW of Carmen (if it's still there). If that's our W2 it could be our sentry by using those forests to keep an eye out. That intelligence is probably worth the cost of not having an extra Quecha in the area.
This probably goes without saying but if we can nail him in 1T or 2T after he plants but before the congoline arrives, we might not need to commit the kitchen sink.
If we have to endure that city's existenance for any reason we can move the settler to 1NW of the corn to claim the cows + marble. That'll fit nicely with the plains hill location after we pry it from his cold, dead hands.
It's really low prob but if he does move to the desert hill we could move our settler 1E of the gold, plant the city, teleport him north and then capture a worker and settler if we can. Gold, corn, 4 fp, wines, it's a great city even if it's not in our original location.
Move our Quecha onto the grass hill 1W of the corn for best odds of capturing worker/settler.
It's funny, Bacchus' move upset me, but I find the results of Ichabod's move to be pretty fun.
Next turn's a big one, take your time in deciding it.
Yeah, I agree on playing carefully. That Cheetah's warrior is influencial is just my fault. I even have a checklist of the right order to do things in a turn: check logs, then check the map very carefully before moving on. (Then espionage, then diplo screen stuff, then graphs and demos, then scouting units, then all other units, then city micro, then check tech plan.) And I didn't check the map much, being preoccupied with other parts of the map.
If Ichabod settles and can defend what we can throw at it (I fully intend to move at least 2 axes down there immediately) then I'm ready to go irrationally all-in and throw all production toward military to go toward that site. It's selfish beyond this game - I don't want anyone to think they can aggressively settle closer to my capital than theirs in the early game, in future games. I wouldn't react this way mirrored with Retep simply because Barbiere's site was closer and more usable by us.
(September 17th, 2013, 09:23)WilliamLP Wrote: Yeah, I guess. I just don't understand how he thinks he can defend it, so isolated from the rest of his empire, and the distance costs will really hurt him, at least in the short run.
He's probably thinking that we're tied up with Retep, which we are.
The turn that we declare on Ichabod if we don't think that we can defend from the bulk of Retep's chart-visible power then we'll need to preemptively whip an archer or axe. When Retep sees us at war, he'll probably want to take a peak if nothing else. One whip turn might not be enough to hold.
Maintenance costs: -25% for aggressive if you can believe that.
But really, Ichabod can defend that city if we give him just a few turns at least against the military that we can reasonably project without exposing ourselves to Retep. It's almost equi-distance capital-to-capital. He's got little if anything to worry about to his east, especially with Cheetah losing a city and not having horse. In just a few turns he'll be able to project all of his power concentrated into this one city.
-DesertedProphet is on a hill and still far enough away from Cheetah.
-MercyOfKammon (can't read it easily) is backlines and safe.
-Capital is backlines and safe.
-RackAndTheTree is on a hill and only needs to protect from a barbarian and given the shape of the land he might not even need that.
-Harmony needs only to defend against barbs.
Seriously, if he lands this city for only a few turns we won't be able to do much other than give him bad looks. He's certainly got the land base and MFG to defend that location. Speed is of the essence.
If I have some time I'll try to read his power graph to see what we might be up against.
Well he could hold the city if he had like ANY military.
-At a glance he's got one 6K increase maybe 3 turns ago. So that means that he could have an axe heading our way but that would then mean that he doesn't have archery.
-He looks to have 3 x 3K power increases.
-One of them is very early it's probably a pop + warrior.
-THe other is 2/3 through the game and I'd guess it to be a barracks for culture since he probably doesn't have archery at this point.
-Last one is the most recent turn but its really hard to tell if its a 2K or a 3K (last turn is always a little fuzzy). 2 Turns before that he made an 6K increase so he could have *just* researched Archery and built his first archer. :LOL: What a difference from the game that we've had to play. If this is what he did then he has no axes yet.
He looks to have 2 x 4K power increases so that would be wheel and maybe a spear?
Other than that its all pop and warriors. I'm not at all surprised that he tried to plant this city with just a warrior because that looks like hist state-of-the-art military at this moment. :LOL: If the congo line is enroute you could destroy it with a single axe. Here comes our Heroic Epic unit.
(September 17th, 2013, 13:28)MindyMcCready Wrote: The turn that we declare on Ichabod if we don't think that we can defend from the bulk of Retep's chart-visible power then we'll need to preemptively whip an archer or axe. When Retep sees us at war, he'll probably want to take a peak if nothing else. One whip turn might not be enough to hold.
Yeah, if Ichabod settles it's all about military from here, with several whips, and I don't care. And I'd aim to get chariots into his land to pillage stuff. Without that site there's nothing good about our position in this game at all.
Quote:It's almost equi-distance capital-to-capital.
It's 8 tiles to 10, which I guess is "almost" but more than enough to make me feel obligated to fight for it to have an interesting game going forward.
And yeah, don't forget that we had as good a start in this game as anyone and we have invested more than the rest of the world into military while he's invested everything into settlers and workers. They pay for themselves and then multiply value, but not by turn 60 they don't. A new city doesn't return the 100 food-hammers used to settle it (plus worker costs) for quite a while. We've also already got a road path right to the site, and I can't see how he possibly could yet.
You cross-posted me so I'm posting again to make sure that you see the power graph. Based on this we could consider OPERATION ENTRAPMENT.
Let him settle, grab the wines location and beat that undefended city at our leisure. I'm sure he could build/whip out an army in reasonable time so the objective in that neck of the woods is to get a Terrace up ASAP and build archers like crazy and fortify up. We'd definately derail him from his builder mode,...but largely at our expense.
Audacious and all but at least I understand why he's trying to do it unlike Bacchus.
