[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

[MindyMcCready]

Looking at all this under the new lens of "Ichabod really, really has no troops", should he retreat his settler/worker to the wines location, I'm not sure that we shouldn't plant our city and then raze that city. We'll definately be taking some diplo hits while capping the future superpower.

Rationally he should probably shrug and say, 'didn't work out but worth the risk' and then go about backfilling all of his nice juicy locations while we languish in a war with Retep.

[WilliamLP]

He settled in place. For me, declaring was a no-brainer. I wish there were someone on this stupid rock didn't want to wipe us out LOL.




Settling on the wines and trying to contain and cut him off would be an interesting move, but I'm deciding to see if we can just blitz him out right now and I moved the settler with the archer and quechua in case we can just win right now. If we settled to contain we'd need to defend that city and I'm not sure if we can do that more easily than taking out TooManyKojiros.

Ichabod has one warrior in the city. I'm wondering if we'll see an axe next turn. What you see is what we've got: an archer and quechua ready to attack. 2 archers and 1 quechua are on route. There is an axe and a spear in Carmen. Carmen will whip the terrace next turn, and spec out to whipping axes if we have to.

At home we have 2 axes and an archer, and Barbiere can whip walls.

Retep chopped the staging tile. Retep built another axe I think (he's at 88k power). And Retep is still running on two cities! Though, my hunch is he may be preparing to settle for horse very soon. (My hunches have been wrong before.)

Retep left a warrior that our fortified hill axe could have killed - I didn't take the bait. My feeling is he's trying to remove that axe at least cost.

Cheetah got his third city back.




Thanks for reading into Ichabod's power graph! It doesn't look like he has much, and he also has barbs to worry about. And since Kojiros is so isolated there will be some lag between when we see axes and when they appear.




Ichabod has a lot of production, but ours isn't exactly chopped liver either.




Right now Turandot can get 17 hpt, nearly 2-turning axes, which is already pretty good. My idea is to optimize for the war of attrition, which means not blowing our wad with whips. At size 7, Turandot can get at least 20-21 hpt, which is pretty nice for this part of the game. It needs a rax badly but it's hard to justify slotting it in right now.




Barbiere is going to slash and burn its forests for axes, math efficiency be damned. It needs the 1 hammer from the forest this turn to get the axe out.

[MindyMcCready]

So it looks like we may get to take a shot!

You're sending the Carmen Axe towards TooManyCities right? Let's make sure that we can beat the congo line decisively. If we can kill that city the desert hills 2S1E of TooManyCities should be our plant target. That would really allow the gold-corn to develop in relative safety and not act strictly to exist.

Having said that Retep is continuing to worry me. Without actually looking at the timelines it seems way too long for him to have not settled his 3rd city. 3/4 build axe, 3/4 build spear, 3/4 build archer would seem to fit the 'no-settlers' that we're seeing/not seeing. Also by chopping he can have high mfg without having visibly high mfg.

I guess he could be putting granaries up in 'all' 2 of his cities? But that shouldn't take this long (no actual timeline analysis) with forests to chop? He's probably a little behind on workers as well I guess at least he would be if he intented to expand.

If Retep doesn't plant his 3rd city soon I'd say that he's deliberately staying at 2 cities in order to concentrate all of his power in our direction. That copper city is backlines and won't need troops other than for MP. BUT,...if we survive that attack we'll have some flexibility in the future. We won't necessarily need to attack his capital immediately after construction because he's going to be a non-issue.

[WilliamLP]

It didn't slip into the screenshot, but retep showed an archer on the tile 1NW of the warrior over in the west. That's what makes me think he's trying to defend a city plant.

My theory is that his economy just isn't good, and building all those axes really really set him back for building his settler. His second city is just whipping, his capital is dedicated to military, and he has nothing else. On his graphs we saw his food output rise several turns ago, right? That's where I think he could be building a settler.

You know, if I were hardcore about C&D, it's actually possible to see how many hammers he has in his capital on every turn, by looking at how much the "sabotage production" mission costs. There's a T-Hawk formula for that. I only have so much time and mental energy to devote to this game though!

One thing we have going for us: Retep needs to build a couple of spears, surely, to guard against his south, and they're basically useless for an attack against us.

But yeah, we have to go on the assumption that Retep is preparing to throw everything he has at us, soon. But... axes and archers behind walls are tough to crack, supported by a city that will very soon be able to pump 3 axes every 5 turns.

[MindyMcCready]

It didn't slip into the screenshot, but retep showed an archer on the tile 1NW of the warrior over in the west. That's what makes me think he's trying to defend a city plant.

So we're talking about an archer 2N-6W of Barbiere? Hmmm, that would suggest a city plant and I could see him thinking that he needs enough troops to prevent us from forking opportunities. He's got no idea that we're in a ruckus with all of our neighbours or at least didn't until we DOWed Ichabod. Prior to the DOW, he wouldn't have known that we couldn't concentrate all of our power in his direction.

Its possible that our control of the pfh is more effective than I would have guessed. I had assumed that the land stretched more to the SW and that he'd be able to settle in that direction, but he's got nothing that way. That dry wheat is looking like his best, defensible city location right now and we've denied him easy access to that.

We're definately putting him into a box and forcing him to fight his way out.

My theory is that his economy just isn't good, and building all those axes really really set him back for building his settler. His second city is just whipping, his capital is dedicated to military, and he has nothing else. On his graphs we saw his food output rise several turns ago, right? That's where I think he could be building a settler.

Yeah, the high food is the only thing that makes me think that he's not dedicated to coming after that; but that can be a false signal.

One thing we have going for us: Retep needs to build a couple of spears, surely, to guard against his south, and they're basically useless for an attack against us.

One fortified spear can completely blunt 2 chariots and an axe + road can also kill off chariots so we shouldn't assume that he's got more than 1 or 2. Especially with his city layout.

His power looks like it could be comprised of roughly 5 axes + 1 spear + 3 archers or the equivalent so that's what we'd need to defend against worst case. A spear and an archer for defense and he could still direct 5 axes + 2 archers in our direction. A quecha might not be a terrible idea. That wandering archer is a good sign like you pointed out.

Speaking of worse case, we could be 1T away from having an army at Barbiere's door. He could EOT 65 road the staging tile. EOT 66 he could road and be SW of Barbiere and attack EOT 67. So SOT 66 is our last chance to whip walls or units.
If he's in position he'll be tempted since we DOW'd Ichabod. We might need to get those walls up to deter him.

You know, if I were hardcore about C&D, it's actually possible to see how many hammers he has in his capital on every turn, by looking at how much the "sabotage production" mission costs. There's a T-Hawk formula for that. I only have so much time and mental energy to devote to this game though!

That's pretty hard-core. I like a little bit of mystery in the game, myself.

But yeah, we have to go on the assumption that Retep is preparing to throw everything he has at us, soon. But... axes and archers behind walls are tough to crack, supported by a city that will very soon be able to pump 3 axes every 5 turns.

3 axes every 5 turns is our advantage, it's the 1T notice that's our disadvantage. And we're not behind walls yet. It's probably time to get those up so that we can relax a little in our west and focus more in Ichabod's direction. What a balancing act dealing with TooManyCities and holding Barbiere from worst case scenario. I'll feel 100% better when Retep plants his 3rd city. I don't think that I've ever wanted my opponent to expand out before. :LOL:

[WilliamLP]

Just checking with lurkers: There's nothing wrong with logging in in the wrong side of a turn split just to look around, is there? (Obviously no actions can be taken and nothing can be changed.) Or am I supposed to play ala Spanish mod?

Ichabod moved a Phalanx in, which is no surprise. He's a better civ player than I am and there's no way he would have settled a city like that he couldn't defend from the immediately surrounding units.




The way I look at this: That site is arguably more valuable to us than Retep's capital, and equally close. And it's a hell of a lot easier to imagine taking it. I am totally dedicated to focusing everything at that site, while defending against Retep with the minimum amount possible. If we can't do this until construction so be it... I'm sure we can get there before Ichabod can.

What do you want to do with the settler now? Wine city? Go back home and settle for silver?




Retep's archer. One way to read the warrior is that he really doesn't want that axe on the hill, and he's trying to bait it into attacking, and has 2 axes ready to counterstrike, as the most cost effective way to get rid of it.

Note we can see by the road graphic on the tile 1S of the staging tile that he's roaded the hill 1E of Suit Up now.

Convince me not to send another axe east this coming turn.

[WilliamLP]

Another question: Do you have any objection to giving Cheetah our world map again? He would learn Ichabod's exact layout, which might be good for us? It also might be a good diplo move.

[Rowain]

Just checking with lurkers: There's nothing wrong with logging in in the wrong side of a turn split just to look around, is there? (Obviously no actions can be taken and nothing can be changed.) Or am I supposed to play ala Spanish mod?

Looking around is always allowed.

[MindyMcCready]

Ichabod moved a Phalanx in, which is no surprise. He's a better civ player than I am and there's no way he would have settled a city like that he couldn't defend from the immediately surrounding units.

Damn him. Predictable I suppose - I was hoping that the congo line was a turn or two back. If only we could have nailed his settler while it was just a warrior protecting it. He's really forcing us fight tooth and nail over that area. If he just took the wine location this wouldn't be an all-in fight.

The way I look at this: That site is arguably more valuable to us than Retep's capital, and equally close. And it's a hell of a lot easier to imagine taking it. I am totally dedicated to focusing everything at that site, while defending against Retep with the minimum amount possible. If we can't do this until construction so be it... I'm sure we can get there before Ichabod can.

I agree with this move. He's way back there and his power isn't online yet, let alone over our way. All we have to do it 2:1 him.

Can we ask SlowCheetah to DOW him? That might at least let him know that Ichabod's military is tied up on our side.

What do you want to do with the settler now? Wine city? Go back home and settle for silver?

Assuming that we raze the city, the best layout is probably the desert hill gold corn followed up by the other southern desert hill for a poke in the eye. What about 3N-1W of the desert hill gold-corn location. We can chop out a terrace to get the cows-marble-horse. Not a great location, but it's close by and shouldn't require anything past barb defense plus has the river for trade once we land the desert hill. Might have to say 'good enough' during these difficult times.

Wine city is a little too crazy to stretch right now.

Retep's archer. One way to read the warrior is that he really doesn't want that axe on the hill, and he's trying to bait it into attacking, and has 2 axes ready to counterstrike, as the most cost effective way to get rid of it.

I think that's a correct read. Like I said, I wanted to control that tile, but even so didn't realize the extent to which we were choking his city plants. With only 5 axes he's going to have to risk losing 40% of his offensive army if he wants that spot or else risk planting somewhere that we can fork him. Exactly as planned, just more effective than realized. :LOL:

So he's got a settler coming out then.

Note we can see by the road graphic on the tile 1S of the staging tile that he's roaded the hill 1E of Suit Up now.

Defcon++ or is that the other way?

Convince me not to send another axe east this coming turn.

Hey, not fair. You need to post the troop positioning before asking a question like that.

PS: Having a road on the PFH is a nice move. Makes him sweat it out and delay his settler or choose a suboptimal location. For all he knows this war with Ichabod is a setup. We might be so effective at faking him out that he kills us. :LOL:

If you've got 4 troops in Barbiere or 4 troops can get to Barbiere I think that we send everything else towards Ichabod.

[MindyMcCready]

Heh, SlowCheetah's army makes Ichabod's look intimidating. Still it wouldn't hurt to signal him to that effect. Might divert some of Ichabod's army, might land Cheetah a city who knows? Even if Cheetah just settled up on him that might help long-term.

An early signal is especially useful if this little confrontation lasts a while. Its not like Ichabod can ask Retep to DOW or anything. It's getting pretty hard to find those silver-lining, but I got one!