[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

[MindyMcCready]

Another question: Do you have any objection to giving Cheetah our world map again? He would learn Ichabod's exact layout, which might be good for us? It also might be a good diplo move.

I think that you should trade maps and ask for a DOW on Ichabod. Him seeing that aggressive plant as well as having one on his own doorstep should tell him volumes.

Hopefully, he's smarter than Bacchus. :LOL: Sorry, couldn't resist.

[WilliamLP]

Damn him. Predictable I suppose - I was hoping that the congo line was a turn or two back. If only we could have nailed his settler while it was just a warrior protecting it. He's really forcing us fight tooth and nail over that area. If he just took the wine location this wouldn't be an all-in fight.

Yeah. I'm imagining the final land division and borders if we just sigh and let him have this site and we'd get less than our 1/18th of the land on this map, that's for sure.

I agree with this move. He's way back there and his power isn't online yet, let alone over our way. All we have to do it 2:1 him.

Can we ask SlowCheetah to DOW him? That might at least let him know that Ichabod's military is tied up on our side.

I'll check. I don't think it does harm to ask.

Assuming that we raze the city, the best layout is probably the desert hill gold corn followed up by the other southern desert hill for a poke in the eye. What about 3N-1W of the desert hill gold-corn location. We can chop out a terrace to get the cows-marble-horse. Not a great location, but it's close by and shouldn't require anything past barb defense plus has the river for trade once we land the desert hill. Might have to say 'good enough' during these difficult times.

Wine city is a little too crazy to stretch right now.

I kind of like that site (3N-1W)! We need a city that's going to be productive sooner rather than later, and it has enough forests and hills to qualify. The food isn't good, but it at least has the dry cow and 4 river grass for farms.

Yeah, the wine city probably complicates things too much - we'd need to garrison it which makes it harder to throw more at 2many.

Convince me not to send another axe east this coming turn.

Hey, not fair. You need to post the troop positioning before asking a question like that.

PS: Having a road on the PFH is a nice move. Makes him sweat it out and delay his settler or choose a suboptimal location. For all he knows this war with Ichabod is a setup. We might be so effective at faking him out that he kills us. :LOL:

If you've got 4 troops in Barbiere or 4 troops can get to Barbiere I think that we send everything else towards Ichabod.

By the way, the offer always stands to log in yourself and check around, any time you want to go to the trouble of getting the mod set up. As it is you're filtered for information by what I decide is relevant enough to screenshot...

Next turn we'll have 3 axes and 1 archer in Barbiere, including the new axe built. A chop can be finished next turn, and I think it will go to finishing walls.

I can see Retep seeing the DoW and thinking there is no time like right now to attack though, and he may be right.

It's time for some combat sims too now, maybe. I think we need to know if what we have now over there (about 3 archers, 1 axe, 2 quechua will arrive) could take the city, or if we need to build up. If the latter, Turandot probably needs a barracks soon.

[WilliamLP]

I think that you should trade maps and ask for a DOW on Ichabod. Him seeing that aggressive plant as well as having one on his own doorstep should tell him volumes.

Ok. I'm thinking of even gifting him maps, as being more symbolic, and since I doubt he has scouted anything interesting in the last few turns. It was Ichabod who had the interesting maps of the area S of retep after all. We could offer open borders too since it does nothing (until we eventually have sailing and a coastal connection).

But I'll just ask him to declare war after that trade, if it's possible. I don't think he will, but he'd hopefully read for what it is, signalling we want an alliance.

One thing for sure, Ichabod's farmer's gambit is officially over. He's going to have to build units now instead of settlers, and it's going to cost him in maintenance. So we're kind of best friends to everyone else in the world who wants to win this game right now.

[MindyMcCready]

I kind of like that site (3N-1W)! We need a city that's going to be productive sooner rather than later, and it has enough forests and hills to qualify. The food isn't good, but it at least has the dry cow and 4 river grass for farms.

Hah! That was easier than it should have been. What's all this like-minded stuff about?

By the way, the offer always stands to log in yourself and check around, any time you want to go to the trouble of getting the mod set up. As it is you're filtered for information by what I decide is relevant enough to screenshot...

Thanks for the offer. I've avoided installing this game for a reason. That damn "One more turn" thing; I get a little too involved. I'm living vicariously though you if you haven't noticed.

Sorry for the extra work and I completely understand if you're unable to post due to those much-less-interesting RL stuff. Hopefully I'm a net benefit in grand strategy and military hawkishness for your efforts.

Next turn we'll have 3 axes and 1 archer in Barbiere, including the new axe built. A chop can be finished next turn, and I think it will go to finishing walls.

With the walls that should be enough to survive the first turn of combat even if he throws everything he's got at us. Best to sim it out while you're at it.

It's time for some combat sims too now, maybe. I think we need to know if what we have now over there (about 3 archers, 1 axe, 2 quechua will arrive) could take the city, or if we need to build up. If the latter, Turandot probably needs a barracks soon.

My spreadsheet has
10% odds that the first axe could win against the C1 Phalanx.
47% odds that a follow up archer would win.
77% odds that a 2nd follow up archer would win.
85% odds that a follow up quecha would win.

So that leaves an archer + quecha to kill off the warrior. But we'd be pretty vunerable to more congos and we'd have to rush a settler to our location to stop him from being a further PITA.

[WilliamLP]

Sadly, there seem to be no "declare war on" diplo options, like in an AI game. I did offer to gift our map to Cheetah. Also, open borders is now at Alphabet! That's an odd change to me; it seems to take an interesting strategic element out of the early game, imo. It devalues Currency too since the additional trade routes added will all be worth 1.




Retep shows his settler! I bet he settles where he stands as it's the logical spot. It's nice that it will de-dotmap the annoying hills W of barber. We now just have to be careful he doesn't settle on silver!

He has the settler (and a need to protect it from that axe). And he's also showing an axe on the hill to the south. Given that, I'm confident enough to:

- Move 2 axes out of Barbiere to the fork tile this turn.
- The CG1 archer is moving to the fork tile since it makes much more sense to be there than participating in an attack.
- Barbiere finishes walls with both a chop and a whip, so it can finish an axe next turn. It has just 1 axe and 1 archer as it stands. But, next turn it will finish an axe.
- So it's potential defenders in 2 turns are 2 axes and 2 archers (1 CG), behind walls. Plus more axes coming immediately from chops and Turandot. I think this is enough to stop what he can throw down given what we see.




Over in the east, that road on the FP was a terrible choice, sorry. I made it too hastily. It should be a road NE of Carmen, and SE of Carmen. Note to self, before moving a worker to build a road, always, always ask if there is another place that accomplishes the same things but would also have advantages. The roads we want are NE-NE-NE.

Carmen whips the terrace.

The barb warrior complicates things. I moved two quechuas across the river to guard the settler. 1 quechua would be a 10% risk of losing which is too high. If all goes well, the W2 can move with the settler next turn to the city site.

There is only 1 archer on the hill by 2many. If Ichabod wants to attack out with a 35% chance of losing the phalanx I'd welcome it.

3 axes can get to the attack tile within 3 turns.

I'm thinking of running the axe 2E of Carmen down around the south of 2many, to make sure he can't road to it or build improvements, and cut off warrior and archer reinforcements. This would be dangerous if he had chariots but he doesn't yet.




No light blue jumps is always great news.

[MindyMcCready]

Sadly, there seem to be no "declare war on" diplo options, like in an AI game.

You type it in text. I'll try to find an example in another thread. Man, your machiavellian rating really went down a notch with that statement.

I did offer to gift our map to Cheetah. Also, open borders is now at Alphabet! That's an odd change to me; it seems to take an interesting strategic element out of the early game, imo. It devalues Currency too since the additional trade routes added will all be worth 1.

Yep, feeling better everyday about the construction choice. Currency's still strong for us with the markets. Are you imagining that we're going to have international trade routes? Because I sure don't see any right now. :LOL: Maybe Cheetah and (wince) Bacchus.

Retep shows his settler!

Thank goodness! We've got 10+ turns before we could hook up our horses. He'll have horses before that likely but his defenses are now split and it's easier for us to attack him than it is for him to attack Barbiere. We might only have a few turns to get that axe out - it's done its job.

It's nice that it will de-dotmap the annoying hills W of barber. We now just have to be careful he doesn't settle on silver!

Silver would be a massive PITA. We actually need a city 2W of Silver to lock down that area now. That's going to split our defenses but 3 archers + whip/walls should hold against anything but a 100% all in.

I think that the wines will have to wait.

He has the settler (and a need to protect it from that axe). And he's also showing an axe on the hill to the south. Given that, I'm confident enough to:

- Move 2 axes out of Barbiere to the fork tile this turn.
- The CG1 archer is moving to the fork tile since it makes much more sense to be there than participating in an attack.
- Barbiere finishes walls with both a chop and a whip, so it can finish an axe next turn. It has just 1 axe and 1 archer as it stands. But, next turn it will finish an axe.
- So it's potential defenders in 2 turns are 2 axes and 2 archers (1 CG), behind walls. Plus more axes coming immediately from chops and Turandot. I think this is enough to stop what he can throw down given what we see.

Sounds good.

Over in the east, that road on the FP was a terrible choice, sorry. I made it too hastily. It should be a road NE of Carmen, and SE of Carmen. Note to self, before moving a worker to build a road, always, always ask if there is another place that accomplishes the same things but would also have advantages. The roads we want are NE-NE-NE.

Happens.

Those roads would be good. Now can Ichabod see the tile N-3W of TooManyCities? That moutain peak gives him visibility right?

There is only 1 archer on the hill by 2many. If Ichabod wants to attack out with a 35% chance of losing the phalanx I'd welcome it.

Might be worth the chance. But that archer could also be critical in achieveing the 2:1 ratio or killing off a defending warrior. I'd suggest moving him until we're ready for a full attack. It might make him think that we're backing off - not that it'll make much difference. He's either got units en route or not.

3 axes can get to the attack tile within 3 turns.

I'm thinking of running the axe 2E of Carmen down around the south of 2many, to make sure he can't road to it or build improvements, and cut off warrior and archer reinforcements. This would be dangerous if he had chariots but he doesn't yet.

You're violating the golden rule of "don't split your stack". We want to 2:1 him not get 2:1ed.

From his power graph it still doesn't look like he's got archery (6K power increase). Now I'm saying this with great trepidation because he's got 3K power increases all over the place but those could be his growing cities + warriors. (looks like he lost a warrior) But as far as I can tell there only appears to be 1 x 6K which should be the Phalanx that we're looking at. Soooooooooo,.....theoretically,........... we're not going be stopping imaginary archers.

Between the phalanxs that we don't see (and if we do see them powerwise, we *don't* want our axe south of the city) his apparant lack of Archery, and the fact that we probably don't care if he moves an entire stack of warriors into the city
I'm not sure what the advantage is of moving south?

There might be little to no danger, or we might suddently see a 12K powerrise and lose our axe to 2-tile, worker-assisted move. The axe isn't going to get us any stealth advantage but it might stop us from concentrating our power so I'm going to recommend against it.

One more thing: it looks like Ichabod has only whipped once in the last handful of turns. So it seems like that's the phalanx that we're seeing and nothing else is en route. Man, he must be thinking that we're completely tied up with Retep.

[WilliamLP]

You type it in text. I'll try to find an example in another thread. Man, your machiavellian rating really went down a notch with that statement.

In that case it's just against the rules of the game as not being "AI Diplo". I'm one of the least Machiavellian players on this site, lol. Lose with strong moral fibre!

Yep, feeling better everyday about the construction choice. Currency's still strong for us with the markets. Are you imagining that we're going to have international trade routes? Because I sure don't see any right now. :LOL: Maybe Cheetah and (wince) Bacchus.

Yeah, if we need Alphabet for them, an otherwise nearly useless tech, then that's a long ways away, and we'd surely have scouted someone else on the sea by then anyway (or vice versa). So my evaluation of having at least one local neighbour with sustained peace doesn't apply to RBMod, I have learned.

Silver would be a massive PITA. We actually need a city 2W of Silver to lock down that area now. That's going to split our defenses but 3 archers + whip/walls should hold against anything but a 100% all in.

I think that the wines will have to wait.

Yeah, I'm definitely nervous enough that we need to secure the silver very soon as our next city on the 3W1N site.

Those roads would be good. Now can Ichabod see the tile N-3W of TooManyCities? That moutain peak gives him visibility right?

Yeah, peaks see two tiles over everything except other peaks and forested hills (strangely). They're great natural watchtowers, which is a real strength of Carmen once it expands.

Might be worth the chance. But that archer could also be critical in achieveing the 2:1 ratio or killing off a defending warrior. I'd suggest moving him until we're ready for a full attack. It might make him think that we're backing off - not that it'll make much difference. He's either got units en route or not.

I don't know about that part. Moving off the hill means he can start playing chess by moving the phalanx onto it, though I guess we'd probably welcome that. I would be extremely happy if he tried to attack this turn though. It's a chance of him losing what may be his only metal unit in his whole empire.

You're violating the golden rule of "don't split your stack". We want to 2:1 him not get 2:1ed.

Ok, fair enough. The only reason to run an axe south is for a longer war to make sure he can't connect the city with roads, improve tiles, or reinforce with anything weaker than a phalanx. But it's probably not that great an idea.

From his power graph it still doesn't look like he's got archery (6K power increase). Now I'm saying this with great trepidation because he's got 3K power increases all over the place but those could be his growing cities + warriors. (looks like he lost a warrior) But as far as I can tell there only appears to be 1 x 6K which should be the Phalanx that we're looking at. Soooooooooo,.....theoretically,........... we're not going be stopping imaginary archers.

I think archers are a pretty terrible build vs us still because of how cost effective quechuas are. It's the Incan advantage that will last about fifteen more minutes in this game.

One more thing: it looks like Ichabod has only whipped once in the last handful of turns. So it seems like that's the phalanx that we're seeing and nothing else is en route. Man, he must be thinking that we're completely tied up with Retep.

Yeah, I'm not going to call it weed until we can prove it by razing the city. But I'm having a hard time seeing how he can deal with 3 axes + 2 archers ready to attack in 3 turns.

[MindyMcCready]

PB9 SPOILER

In that case it's just against the rules of the game as not being "AI Diplo". I'm one of the least Machiavellian players on this site, lol. Lose with strong moral fibre!

As far as I understand that is "AI Diplo". You're supposed to keep the text to only what you could offer via AI diplo. For example there was an illegal offer made once to declare on team XX in 10T which would be outside of what you could offer via AI.

We'll have to check the rules.

[MindyMcCready]

Yeah, I'm definitely nervous enough that we need to secure the silver very soon as our next city on the 3W1N site.

Hate to bring this up again, but one of the key values of SilverCity apart from the superior production, the fast startup due to sheep, the instant happy, the 25% defense bonus, that it doesn't steal food from Turandot,... is the fact that it locks down all of our west with only one city.

If we plant 1N3W, Retep will take the pfh 2W of silver. That will also be a huge PITA. Hills bonus, flatland in front, strong food, strong production, supporting city 3 tiles away, its own silver, and it'll put cultural pressure on our silver.

We could choose to plant on the PFH 2W of Silver ourselves but we'd be sticking our neck in yet another direction. Everyone of our cities would be vunerable or somewhat vunerable. Ichabod can hit our gold-cor or Carmen, Retep could hit our West PFH city or Barbiere or Carmen.

If we don't lock down our west we're going to be putting out bush fires for the whole game. We desperately need that settler for gold-corn and we'll need to race out another 1-2 settlers for the west.

In contrast, if we plant on the Silver, we can reinforce it faster but more importantly Retep has little choice in city spots to our west that don't leave his dangerously exposed to our forking. These same type of reasons were why I wanted to control that PFH 2N4W of Barbiere and it worked pretty well in forcing Retep to make tough, second-best decisions. We can see him baiting us so he clearly doesn't like it and it might have been a factor in him delaying his settler.

PS: don't move that axe until Retep's settled. I think I said something along the lines that 'his job is done', but it's not done yet.

[WilliamLP]

Thanks for clarifying "AI Diplo". I had no idea!

Yeah, I'm definitely nervous enough that we need to secure the silver very soon as our next city on the 3W1N site.

Hate to bring this up again, but one of the key values of SilverCity apart from the superior production, the fast startup due to sheep, the instant happy, the 25% defense bonus, that it doesn't steal food from Turandot,... is the fact that it locks down all of our west with only one city.

Oh dear, we're back to this?

The other city also gets fast start-up from sheep. Production is a wash for the early to mid game (the silver does not provide +1h). We don't really need instant happy - happy fairly soon is fine. The defense is a huge disadvantage. Besides the hill it's five tiles from the capital so would need a dedicated defense force, where the other city has a fine defensive location in its own right across the river. "Stealing" the cow is a massive advantage at this point in the game, not a disadvantage. It means it has a 4 food tile to grow on (plus sheep) while Turandot builds workers or settlers, which means it grows much more quickly.

And, there's lower distance maintenance and the silver itself, commerce advantages that are magnified when trade routes can't produce more than 1.

PS: don't move that axe until Retep's settled. I think I said something along the lines that 'his job is done', but it's not done yet.

Sure. I was actually planning to leave him there basically permanently, since it will always be a huge pain for Retep to deal with. I don't even know if he has odds on taking it out without losing 2 axes first.