[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

[MindyMcCready]

Oh dear, we're back to this?

I was being facetious with those other points. The point being our ability to lock down the west with 1 city since we won't be able to pump out 3 settlers before Retep gets up there.

I'm definately not arguing the economic merits of one city over the other. Only the strategic value. This choice, while sounds in terms of output, is going to make our life with Retep difficult. We're really giving Retep a very good opportunity for strategically placed cities and we may not have the output to deal with him while fending off Ichabod.

He'll plant on that PFH; he'll have that 1E of horse site as a supporting city; he'll grab a city 1SE of the western fish; he'll be able to put one north of that PFH location. You'll be handing him a lot of output and all of these spots are pretty defensible with a single stack positioned in that PFH 2W of Silver. His city West of his horses plant will also be safe. If we discourge him from settling north of his horses plant we could bypass that horse city and take a stab at his west most holdings.

If we allow this and fail to break him during our early catapults phase, and its entirely possible that we're wrapped up with other things when the time comes, then we're just going to have to live with these sites or we're going to have to bulldoze through his concentrated strength. This won't be easy once he also has catapults - we'll probably just lose a stack trying.

So, no, I don't love bringing this topic up again anymore than I imagine that you love hearing about it. But I think that there's more to it than a straight economic calculation.

[MindyMcCready]

Sure. I was actually planning to leave him there basically permanently, since it will always be a huge pain for Retep to deal with. I don't even know if he has odds on taking it out without losing 2 axes first.

Well we only have mabye 4-5T before a Chariot could costlessly remove our axe. Once he plants we either need to get out of Dodge or reinforce with an archer. The strategic value of staying is strictly the visiblity. I'd prefer to reposition an axe and archer to control the other PFH north.

[WilliamLP]

Honestly I don't see much of anything about the silver plant I like, even ignoring losing the resource. 5 tiles from the nearest city is just a defensive nightmare. And capturing the wheat in borders would be pretty useless - Retep could either settle for it in first ring or just simply pillage it. Admittedly his settling 1NW of silver could be a problem. Perhaps I could be sold on the hill 1E of silver...




Drawing a diagonal line from Barbiere to the silver, anything SW of that is by geography basically his for now, by the distance advantage.

I don't think we can hope to contain the beast from the east while overextending against small fry that is near.

Interestingly a fortified axe on a forest hill still has odds on a chariot.

[MindyMcCready]

And capturing the wheat in borders would be pretty useless - Retep could either settle for it in first ring or just simply pillage it.

I see this differently. If we controlled SilverCity he would be crazy to settle the wheat first ring (you're suggesting 1W or NW of wheat). We could move to the hill, cut off his reinforcements and take that city. He also wouldn't do that since it would isolate the fish.

So presumably he could plant for the fish and then another city some amount N and W of the wheat. He would then have those 2 cities + the horse city to protect from anything that we sent out of the SilverCity. He'd lose that battle so he just shouldn't plant there. Pillaging would be the extent of the damage that he could cause and he'd have to go behind our city so that's less likely or alternatively a losing move for him.

Admittedly his settling 1NW of silver could be a problem. Perhaps I could be sold on the hill 1E of silver...

I'm not sure why you see 1NW as a problem. Sure it would take the silver but that city has no terrain defense and we could approach it by hill. So that's not half the defensive site that the PFH is. By sitting 1S of the silver we can also fork both that city and his horse city with either 2-movers or 1 movers so I see it as more of a defensive liability for him than anything. It's true that we could fork either of those setups, but the PFH has the food and defensive advantage.

I'm not trying to sell you on any particular city location, just trying to treat the west as a strategic priority for us. Having said that the 1E loses the extra sheep food and production so its a little weaker overall.

We get the same strategic value from the combination of the PFH 1S of wheat and the 1N3W city that you want if we can manage it.

Drawing a diagonal line from Barbiere to the silver, anything SW of that is by geography basically his for now, by the distance advantage.

One of my top objectives was to deny him the west in a fashion that would let us backfill. I'm not exactly sure why that shouldn't be our objective. That diagonal line is a very long border and combined with Ichabod that's going to be tough to defend. If we fail to hold our SE then we're forced onto the eastern resourceless region or the 'frigid' north.

I don't think we can hope to contain the beast from the east while overextending against small fry that is near.

Well if one city can do it, I don't think that I'd agree that it's impossible. 1 city with 3 archers + walls on a hill and Retep will likely head in Bacchus' direction.

Interestingly a fortified axe on a forest hill still has odds on a chariot.

That's true, but given that he'll be able to 2:1 his worst case is a hammer exchange but he'd still have some chance of a straight up win. So we shouldn't waste an axe on even hammers at best.

[WilliamLP]

I see this differently. If we controlled SilverCity he would be crazy to settle the wheat first ring (you're suggesting 1W or NW of wheat). We could move to the hill, cut off his reinforcements and take that city. He also wouldn't do that since it would isolate the fish.

I just don't think it's that easy. I think 1W of the wheat would be a fine city for him, or probably will be. Anything we put over there is miles away from the rest of our cities, and he has a geographic and vision advantage. At any time he could launch a big attack from the west or towards Barbiere, and we'd need to have enough force to defend his entire force in both, because he could swing the same force in either way, and they can't reinforce each other.

I'm not sure why you see 1NW as a problem. Sure it would take the silver

That's why! The city isn't even a good one without the silver, imo. A city with no tile greater than +3 food is just not a good city in this game. It's the silver that swings it both for the happiness and because it's just a fantastic tile.

One of my top objectives was to deny him the west in a fashion that would let us backfill. I'm not exactly sure why that shouldn't be our objective. That diagonal line is a very long border and combined with Ichabod that's going to be tough to defend. If we fail to hold our SE then we're forced onto the eastern resourceless region or the 'frigid' north.

If we chase two rabbits we lose them both. To me the east is far more important here, and it's not even close. You can keep trying but to me settling on the silver isn't even contending to being a good option. It completely changes the game to say we're all-in on choking Retep out of the game right now, which isn't the game I think we want right now. I don't think we'll be able to do it anyway, so soon.

Well if one city can do it, I don't think that I'd agree that it's impossible. 1 city with 3 archers + walls on a hill and Retep will likely head in Bacchus' direction.

That's a lot of resources to get that out! And that's not good enough because he moves axes in and starts pillaging and choking. You're also talking about having enough to have options to deny him wheat which is a lot more. We'd have no mobility. With 1E defenders can be shared with Barbiere which is a pretty big deal, and frees up many more military units to defend elsewhere.

Also if he wants that stuff to the west, he's going to lose the contested flood plains paradise to Bacchus (unless he plays like a complete idiot, lol). I'm extremely fine with playing the long game against that.

[MindyMcCready]

Heh, forget the two rabbits. We're diving into the jaws of the wolf standing in front of us while letting the one already gnawing on our leg sink his teeth in deeper.

I gotta tell you that we really should be trying to choke Retep out of the game. He is not going away. He will be a thorn in our side. He will act opportunistically against us when we're at our weakest. We're playing an always war game. We need to weaken him and deny him at every opportunity, not ignore him.

We didn't choke him out when he only had archers. He's become much more dangerous since then. Our food, cities and production advantages over him are going to diminish over time as we grind it out with Ichabod.

If we're able to deal decisively with Retep, or at least cripple him to the point of ineffectiveness, we'd have a chance at taking the fight to Ichabod. Ichabod would have 2 borders at that time where we would have effectively one. Alternatively, we draw a line in the sand comprising Carmen--Gold/Corn and head after the land of the weakened Bacchus. This land is big enough for 2 superpowers.

But even more to the point. Like you said that land to the south is pretty rich. Every city that we allow him easy access to is a city that he doesn't have to fight with Bacchus over. A solid, food rich undisputed city is better than a fiercely contested but somewhat better one. Bacchus gets stronger; Retep gets stronger; we fight it out with Ichabod.

If instead we have any chance to make our West less appealing, and I believe that the west is very unappealing to Retep with either the SilverCity or the 2 blocking cities, then Retep is more motivated to send his resouces towards Bacchus to fight over those rich floodplains and we get to backfill at our leisure.

Tell me what I'm missing that this isn't a dominant strategy?

[WilliamLP]

Basically, Retep is already dead. He has no chance in a long game, and all we have to do to beat him is hold him off until we have a tech and production advantage. With 1 city to the west, defendable by fork with Barber, defending is dead-simple, and it can't really go wrong since defending is so advantageous in this game. If we extend to the west, suddenly it's not simple: we're maneuvering and leaving tactical possibilities open at a time when we're at tech and power parity. We can crush Retep in the long game.

On the other hand, we have no hope at all against Ichabod in the long game. There may be room for two superpowers on this continent but he's not having any of it. His settlement is a move of contempt. Right now is the only time we can compete with him, and it cannot be with anything less than full force. If there's a need for a city in the west with 3 archers and walls, that's maybe 4-5 axes that could have gone into securing land to the east, which could so easily be a tipping point.

Anyway, since you're on I didn't play the turn yet, but here's the news:




Buddhism spread! This isn't that lucky, apparently, since the chances of a spread at any given turn is somewhere a little below 10%, and the city has existed for about 10 turns now. Ichabod is showing nothing new.

Oh, Maria Callas now has 9XP! She'll go back to Carmen to heal and then try to get one more defense in a forest.




Retep settled on the freaking horse!! Wow, is that ever a desperate play. Needless to say that city is simply horrible. He also built another copper unit it seems.

You know what, you might not like this call but I'm feeling like the settler should come back west now, and leave the eastern city for a bit. Turandot can't really afford to build anything but military at the moment, and I'm fearing we need to put something down there basically right now or we'll get denied.

[MindyMcCready]

Basically, Retep is already dead.

Ok, I understand your grand strategy. I'm not sure that I 100% agree with tackling problem #2 before problem #1, but your argument is defensible.

Buddhism spread!

Yay! Culture pop in 4-5 turns now. Between the walls in Barbiere and the culture in Carmen we might actually be able to project our power outwards.

Ichabod is showing nothing new.

We're getting closer and closer to using that weedy. :LOL:

Retep settled on the freaking horse!! Wow, is that ever a desperate play. Needless to say that city is simply horrible. He also built another copper unit it seems.

That is just crazy, crazy.

Like no food at all unless its in those 2 tiles that we can't see. Do you think that the PFH is an important consideration?

You know what, you might not like this call but I'm feeling like the settler should come back west now, and leave the eastern city for a bit. Turandot can't really afford to build anything but military at the moment, and I'm fearing we need to put something down there basically right now or we'll get denied.

I'm not reading it that way. I think that he did this to get horses online ASAP so that he can go on another military rampage rather than to steal city locations. He hasn't stopped building military so this city plant serves the exclusive purpose of getting horse online (obviously) for his military rampage and for no other reason.

Although we're tied up with Ichabod, Bacchus' power is looking pretty flat. I'd say that it's at least as likely that he'll take another shot at Bacchus now that he has mobility. We could try peace again in order to give him the go ahead. We could even offer an alliance against Bacchus to more fully convey the meaning.

Watch for a rapid rise in power as he turns his new pop into chariots and we'll need to get our axe out of there ASAP. He'll probably eventually plant there but there's not much we can do about it and it fits with your strategy of conceding the west.

Also, where would we put a city to the west that wouldn't be vunerable. That city site that you're moving to is probably the only place where we can develop in peace right now. I'd stick with it.

[WilliamLP]

I'm not reading it that way. I think that he did this to get horses online ASAP so that he can go on another military rampage rather than to steal city locations. He hasn't stopped building military so this city plant serves the exclusive purpose of getting horse online (obviously) for his military rampage and for no other reason.

His capital is size 6, so he can get a settler very fast and he has the military to support it. One main read is that he is desperate to drive our axe away to claim a site there, perhaps on the silver (heh) or near it. I think it would be a strong move for him and it might be too fast for us to stop by building another settler.

EDIT: On the other hand I'll think hard about the micro of Turandot building a settler immediately after the axe next, how fast it can be and whether we could get away with it.

Also, where would we put a city to the west that wouldn't be vunerable. That city site that you're moving to is probably the only place where we can develop in peace right now. I'd stick with it.

4W of Turandot can be fork-defended easily. It's not economically ideal, but not bad either.

The one goal that is most important to the west in my opinion: Retep must not have that silver tile. It would single-handedly increase his tech rate dramatically.

[MindyMcCready]

You know that Retep has silver in his new horse city? That may make him less driven for our Silver.

If he wanted any other tile than the PFH that the axe is sitting on, he could just walk right up and settle it. We couldn't stop him. He may or may not know that, but he's certainly got the military to go and safely take a look around.

An additional archer on the PFH would make his life more difficult.