RB Pitboss #2 [SPOILERS] - Peter of Byzantium

[regoarrarr]

So what (how many) techs do you think we could get away with off of a Oracle Feudalism beeline?

We'd need Poly / Phood / Monarchy on the mainline

Probably Ag, Pottery, Mining, BW at a minimum off the line, right? Possibly AH or Hunting / Archery.

I'm fine considering it if we get to Monarchy soon and the Oracle is still out there, but I would not be surprised to see the Oracle fall super early

[sunrise089]

So what (how many) techs do you think we could get away with off of a Oracle Feudalism beeline?

We'd need Poly / Phood / Monarchy on the mainline

Probably Ag, Pottery, Mining, BW at a minimum off the line, right? Possibly AH or Hunting / Archery.

I'm fine considering it if we get to Monarchy soon and the Oracle is still out there, but I would not be surprised to see the Oracle fall super early

I played a Monarch test game versus the AI. I used the continents map script which I don't play too often, and selected Large map size. The map must have been a lot bigger than I expected because I languished in 4-7th place in GNP once we reached the mid game, something I rarely if ever do on Monarch.

Anyways, I built Oracle and followed the GP path we've discussed. I got Cataphracts around T180. However I could have had them by T150 had I not bulbed - despite trying to make more military than I usually would have against the AI I had to tech towards Liberalism to avoid self-research Metal Casting and Machinery. I'm guessing I still over-expanded and under-defended relative to a MP game though.

Anyways, Cataphracts were still quite dominant even in the test game. However my nearest neighbor was Protective/Charismatic and has ivory, so I was literally attacking city after city of CG3 Longbows and anti-Mounted Elephants

[sunrise089]

Our starting location:



Obviously we can't move off the coast. Tile bleedthrough makes it appear that we wouldn't loose any food by moving 1E. We could move the warrior 1W to make sure, but I think that will just reveal 3 grassland forests. I would probably move the warrior 1E, but would probably settle 1E either way.

EDIT: If we settle in place it isn't a bad Oracle spot. With fishing and mining, but without a work boat or bronze working, it's 13 hammers (and 3 commerce) at break even food.

[darrelljs]

It's not thrilling...I definitely think we move the Warrior 1E, and depending on what we find the Settler as well. Surely Krill put grassland river Horse 1E of the Settler ?

Darrell

[regoarrarr]

Any point in moving the warrior 1SE instead?

[sunrise089]

Any point in moving the warrior 1SE instead?

Sure - it reveals more tiles

The only downside is it doesn't reveal the tile 2E of the settler, though obviously we get a lot of free bleed-through on that tile anyways. However, would we move away from the clams? I guess if there were pigs or corn 3S of the warrior visible across that tiny lake then maybe...

[darrelljs]

I definitely prefer 1E, since we're pretty much choosing between on the spot or 1E. If we don't see anything, tasty, I'd favor on the spot to avoid settling on what might be a strategic resource.

Is the game actually active, i.e. can you move the Warrior?

Darrell

[regoarrarr]

Okay - here's the analyis of in place vs. 1E

assumptions
the tiles 2W and W-SW are grass forest
the tile 2E of current setler is grass forest
tile E-SE of current settler is plains (sunrise thinks it looks weird and possibly is due to a terrain edit like plains sheep or plains cow)
tile SE-SE of current settler is plain grass

Code:

.........    total    city    grass    crab    wheat    grass    coast    grass    plains    grass    grass    plains    fog    fog
.........    tiles    center    river            forest        hill    hill    river            land    coast
                                        forest                

in place    21    1    2    1    1    6    5    1    2    1    0    1    0    0
1 East         21    1    2    1    1    3    5    1    1    1    1    1    2    1

So, in place gains us
3 grass forests
1 plains hill

for
1 grass
2 land fog tiles
1 coast fog tile

[darrelljs]

Yeah...just to re-word it cause I'm annoying:

Plains tile loses Hill (maybe gains a resource).
Grassland tile loses Forest.
Grassland Forest turns to Coast.
Two Grassland Forest for ???

On top of it, we risk settling on a strategic resource. I think we need a resource to justify moving. Settling >>>> scouting at this point, so I definitely prefer to move the Warrior 1E to maximize information on this decision.

Darrell

[regoarrarr]

Darrell - sunrise and I have chatted a bit today

(10:19) sunrise089: hi regoarrarr
(10:19) me: well hello there
(10:19) me: what's going on
(10:20) sunrise089: today is the big day I think
(10:20) sunrise089: (for RBP2)
(10:44) me: i'm analyzing in place vs. 1e
(10:44) me: i'll post / IM when i'm done
(10:47) me: so, do you know / can you analyze the tiles that would be unfogged by moving the warrior 1E vs. 1SE?
(10:48) sunrise089: 2E of the wariror is weird...to me it almost looks like a graphical artifact
(10:49) me: hm
(10:49) sunrise089: but i think 1E reveals Grass Forest, Plains, and Grassland
(10:49) me: so do you just reveal the tiles that are next to you
(10:49) me: unless you're on a hill
(10:49) me: ?
(10:50) sunrise089: I SE reveals Plains, Grassland, Unknown, Grassland Forest, Lake, Peak, and maybe another Unknown
(10:50) sunrise089: unless you're on a hill and next to a non-forested tile, or looking over water, or the tile 2 away is a hill or peak and only a non-forest is in between
(10:50) me: gotcha
(10:50) me: which is why if we go SE
(10:50) me: we'll see the peak that is S-SW of the wheat?
(10:51) sunrise089: best case is SW actually for revealing tiles
(10:51) sunrise089: yes, we should see the peak over the lake
(10:51) me: so you think E-SE of settler is plains?
(10:51) sunrise089: also, if I had to guess, the tile 2E of the settler may look weird because it's a worldbuilt palins tile
(10:51) sunrise089: err...2E of the warrior
(10:51) me: right
(10:52) sunrise089: right E, Se of settler
(10:52) sunrise089: I think maybe plains cow or plains sheep
(10:52) sunrise089: or it could just me be, but the tile transition looks ugly, and in my experience that's due to a terrain edit
(10:52) me: yeah
(10:53) sunrise089: I'm thinking they wanted to add another food, but thought grass cow or grass sheep was too strong
(10:53) me: makes sense
(10:53) sunrise089: maybe its a crazy 2nd plains wheat
(10:53) sunrise089: but my guess is cow
(10:53) me: yeah
(10:54) sunrise089: and I won't be surprised at all if there is a resource 1E of the settler, only the only legal non-hill we have
(10:56) me: analysis posted
(10:57) me: and when's that game going to get posted
(10:57) me:
(10:57) sunrise089: lunch time, I hope
(10:57) me: for c&d purposes, it would be ideal if you could be around or available to check it out
(10:57) me: as everyone is logged in
(10:57) me: and grab demog screenshots
(10:57) me: if you can grab one after every team settles
(10:57) me: we can tell who is coastal and a few other things
(10:58) sunrise089: hmm
(10:58) sunrise089: I can probably do that via remoting in
(10:58) me: that would be awesome
(10:58) sunrise089: can you really tell after the first few teams though? what if they're not the rival best or worst?
(10:58) me: you can tell by land area
(10:58) me: you can tell the total land area
(10:59) me: (avg * num teams)
(10:59) me: so after each team settles, the total land area will go up by 1000-9000
(10:59) me: depending on how many land tiles the settling team has in their initial 9 tiles
(10:59) sunrise089: gotcha
(11:00) sunrise089: by the way, I like the chart, but is there any way to fix the alignment?
(11:00) sunrise089: for me (Firefox 3) the bottom row is a column off the top
(11:00) me: gotcha
(11:00) me: you may be able to tell some things also from the other demog numbers
(11:00) me: but those will be more difficult
(11:00) me: but land should be completely able to tell if you can get a screenie after each team settles
(11:01) me: chart fixed
(11:01) sunrise089: thanks
(11:02) sunrise089: you know, I've thought about trying to work around the "people are at work" and "people are on college networks" problem by just creating a dedicated civ client PC (to compliment the dedicated server PC) and just giving everyone the password. That way people could remote into that PC and play their turns from whereever they are....wouldn't even have to close civ
(11:03) me: hmm
(11:03) sunrise089: I could even use a web-based remote access program that doesn't require admin rights to run
(11:04) me: fixed the chart again
(11:04) sunrise089: anyways, I don't have the spare parts lying around right now, but I'll probably make the client if I do a hardware upgrade soon and free up some things
(11:04) sunrise089: ok, will look
(11:05) sunrise089: by the way, dastardly Sullla and Speaker have surpassed our view count
(11:05) sunrise089: I dont expect them to ever be challenged for the title again
(11:05) sunrise089: but we can probably keep second
(11:05) me: yeah
(11:05) me: we can only achievev post count supremacy
(11:05) me: it's not our fault that sullla is the king of rb
(11:05) me: and everyone is going to want to see his thread
(11:05) me:
(11:06) sunrise089: however...
(11:06) sunrise089: if we eleminate him from the game, we win the post war
(11:06) me: exxxxxxxxxxxxcellent
(11:09) me: so to me it doesn't seem worth it at all to give up 3 grass forests and a plains hill for 1 grass and 3 fog tiles
(11:09) me: nto to mention potentially setting on a resource
(11:10) sunrise089: I agree, esp re: settling on resource
(11:10) sunrise089: however it IS possible hidden coast is mor seafood
(11:10) me: so just to get wacky, what about settilng next turn S-SW on the PH
(11:11) me: yeah i did think about that
(11:11) me: if we moevd the warrior NE then we would see a seafood if it was NE-E-E of settler, right?
(11:13) me: would a hidden seafood be enough to want you to move 1E?
(11:14) sunrise089: probably, if we want to go specialist-heavy
(11:14) sunrise089: I'd like to see another hill or two in the fog though
(11:15) sunrise089: and i think the warrior would indeed reveal seafood moving that way
(11:19) me: so, to recap, if the only thing that would make us change our mind about settling in place
(11:19) me: is a potential 2nd seafood
(11:19) me: then we should m ove the warrior NE
(11:22) sunrise089: I would want to confirm with darrell or a MP guy that the seafood tile will actually be revealed
(11:25) me: though if you are right about the hidden plains tile beingg a cow / sheep
(11:25) me: seems odd that we'd get 4 food resources
(11:27) sunrise089: well the 2nd fish wouldn't really be intended as a fourth, right?
(11:28) sunrise089: but yes, I still rate the odds of a 2nd seafood as low

So other than our thoughts about how we can eliminate Sullla - 2 thoughts

1 - move the warrior NE as the possibility (remote we think) of a seafood in the fog would be just about the only thing that would make us settle 1E

2 - kind of a wacky idea - possibility of settling on the plains hill W of the wheat, if that lake turns out to be coast