[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

[WilliamLP]

No moves are very difficult. This is a hell of lot easier to reason about than if Retep had kept Carmen, and he had the option of going either east or west!

- 3 axes + 1 archer are on the tile 1NE of the ruins.
- Barbiere has 3 axes (1 shock, 1C1), 1 spear, 1 archer.
- WT has 2 archers, 1 spear, 2 quechua.
- The settler will plant next turn, guarded by a spear and an axe.
- Corn is improved at WT. Sheep will be improved for the new city next turn.

As we debated, this city has a lot of compromises, but it does deny a lot of annoying spots for retep, is easily defended with units at F2, and is still a fine production city.

Further planning needs to wait for retep's next move. I'm hoping he moves onto the cow, and then he could be in considerable hurt.




Retep's power went up 4k this turn, so that's probably his first (?) chariot.

I'm pretty sure he's building a settler in Suit Up. It's been at size 6 for a while, and he hasn't been producing much military.

WT needs to put a few hammers into an axe to have the option of whipping one at size 2. Still, Ichabod would have to invest a lot to go for the city with fully fortified archers inside, and we have so much more military than him I doubt he'd think it was his best move right now.

[MindyMcCready]

No moves are very difficult. This is a hell of lot easier to reason about than if Retep had kept Carmen, and he had the option of going either east or west!

Sorry, not sure that I follow. He didn't move his 5 axe stack? I'd assume that that's a blocking move while he plants in that location.

Way back when you first proposed the gold-corn city I said that Retep could plant there to try to screw with us. Better late than never doesn't apply to bad prophesy.

He could fill in another city inbetween the capital and the location where his axes are sitting for very tight defense. This seems like a sensible move if he wants to isolate and eventually destroy WilliamTell. It will also prevent us from refounding Carmen in that same location and, all else equal, eventually steals our cow.

He could also plant 3S of Barbiere to be a real PITA - river wraps for defense, steals cow and flood plains.

So I think that a race is on to either plant in that location and/or try to wipe out that stack.

- 3 axes + 1 archer are on the tile 1NE of the ruins.
- Barbiere has MM (4.1) + LeonC1Axe (3.0) + Axe + 1 spear, 1 archer.
- WT has 2 archers, 1 spear, 2 quechua.

So we could bring:
3 axes + 1 archer from the ruins in 2T.
3 Axe + Archer from Barbiere in 3T + 1 whip axe.
1 spear + 1 archer from WT in 4T.

I think that we should be planning to hit that stack in 3T. 7 axes + 2 archers + a second whipped axe from Barbiere to stack protect.

Oh, by the way, you're giving away my secret identity! Can I get a Hit Girl!!!

We probably need to divert the WT spear + archer to the party. A chariot or two could tip the balance. Also, it'll be axe vs axe for the most part and the chariot may be the top defender if the surviving axes are beaten up enough. Not sure if we have to watch out for that Phalanx. I don't think that Ichabod is the vindictive type, but if our archer lost the battle we'd be defending with only quechas after that. Hmmmm, can you guess what I'm thinking right now? :LOL:

- The settler will plant next turn, guarded by a spear and an axe.
- Corn is improved at WT. Sheep will be improved for the new city next turn.

Yay for food!

As we debated, this city has a lot of compromises, but it does deny a lot of annoying spots for retep, is easily defended with units at F2, and is still a fine production city.

Necessities of war and all that. Seems like our whole debate was a little wasted.

Further planning needs to wait for retep's next move. I'm hoping he moves onto the cow, and then he could be in considerable hurt.

Retep's power went up 4k this turn, so that's probably his first (?) chariot.

Betcha he stays put and gets more fortify. We'll probably see that chariot on one of those two city plant locations.

I'm pretty sure he's building a settler in Suit Up. It's been at size 6 for a while, and he hasn't been producing much military.

Yep, we're onto him.

[WilliamLP]

No moves are very difficult. This is a hell of lot easier to reason about than if Retep had kept Carmen, and he had the option of going either east or west!

Sorry, not sure that I follow. He didn't move his 5 axe stack? I'd assume that that's a blocking move while he plants in that location.

Ah, we don't know if he'll move the stack this turn or not. "No moves are difficult" means there weren't any difficult decisions this turn. Sorry for ambiguous language.

[WilliamLP]

Pre-turn report:




Retep moved his axes 1N onto the road. I'm not sure what to make of that play. On the one hand it limits our eastern stack because we don't want to move it to where 5 axes can all hit it. On the other hand it doesn't actually accomplish or threaten anything.

He built an axe this turn I think. He's showing a worker.

La Traviata was founded.

Barber has 3 turns of whip unhappiness left, will almost certainly whip the axe, and will be unhappy for a bit until we connect silver (soon).

Thoughts on tactics? The S1 axe has 75% odds on the C1 axe, though striking now is probably not a good idea.

Q1: Should the workers finish the sheep? We also could move two to the hill 2W of barber, along with an archer or more, and threaten the worker. The worker moves wouldn't be wasted since we want to start mining that hill eventually anyway.




Ichabod is hanging out on the hill 3S2E. If he wants to plant there, I'm reasonably happy with that border. We may even be able to take the wines if he does.




Turandot is a beast prod city at size 7 for this part of the game. You're going to hate me but I think I want another 4-turn settler right now.




I have a feeling Ichabod might be face-palming at this graph. In an ideal world, Bacchus would be smelling blood right now.

[MindyMcCready]

No combat workers to our east is a bit of a pain.

Well that barracks is certainly coming in useful. :LOL: I'm just kidding because I actually want a settler as well. We can't make a move on those axes right now because we don't control those tiles and WT is cut off. Rehooking that city site is a high priority defensively as well as for the reason that it already has improved tiles.

I don't think that we can afford to move our 3 eastern axes into range right now. He could take out our stack and, with the last unit, move 1E, pillage the road and we won't be able to give chase. Best to save our troops, keep WT safe, build a few more and wait for retep to make a mistake.

Also, if Retep does try to plant in our Carmen location, then we make a move for that city and try to kill his stack plus his settler investment.

More than a settler though, I think that we might need some more workers. And yes, I do think that we should bring our 2 workers down towards Barbiere. If Retep pillages our road, they could be invaluable in military maneouvres. So maybe a worker first from Turandot (35% hammer bonus whoo-hoot!) to keep La Travista improving; see if the combat engineers can help clear the area and then a settler?

Got to go, but lastly if we can't hit that stack too soon then we might not need to whip the axe from Barbiere. Just a thought. Got to go.

[MindyMcCready]

About that settler,...if we don't wipe out that stack where would we plant the city? We don't quite have the troops necessary to deal with this retep stack or at least we don't have the mobility necessary to concentrate our troops enough to deal with that stack. I imagine that we're 20-25T away from construction so I don't really want to take an unnecessary stab at him right now if it can be done more efficiently down the road.

If we spend the next 4/5 T building a settler, and retep spends the next 5T whipping a chopping chariots will we be able to protect WT and/or our new city plant? We've got more troops but Retep has more ability to concentrate his troops due to geography and city layout. Does building the settler in Barbiere to wear off some whip unhappy while Turandot puts out military and/or worker make more sense?

If we spend out time building a settler and postpone dealing with that stack for the lack of 1 or 2 axes, troops and he goes and settles in that location with 5 fortifed axes + other are we going to regret the settler build?

These are not well constructed thoughts, more just ramblings and thinking out loud.

I guess my preference would be 2 C1 axes from Turandot + a worker from Barbiere, hit that stack and/or the city he may try to build there, THEN replant Carmen.

[MindyMcCready]

Yeah, the builder in you is losing site of the war effort. First a barracks which could have ben 1 1/2 axes now a settler that could be 3 axes. For the sake of 2 axes we'd probably be wiping out that stack.

We're allowing Retep to isolate WilliamTell and 3 chariots from now (1 of which he already has) we'll be at serious risk of losing that city. We have 5 defenders in that city + a couple of quechas who'll do nothing but delay and feed Retep XP. Insert mandatory "if we had a gold reserve this would be a reasonable play" statement.

And this is to plant some other city that isn't going to be nearly as valuable. I guess 3T or so from now we can whip WT so maybe it's not as dire as I'm making it sound.

[WilliamLP]

Putting it out there, what do you think of moving 2 axe + spear + archer + 2 workers onto the hill 2W of Barber, whip the axe (insurance). This threatens a full invasion and might force him to either charge the axes to Barbiere, and the point is he wouldn't be able to move east without us pillaging all his improvements?

I don't think there's anything dire here at all! If we just went straight military right now we'd clean up that stack in 4-5 turns if not less. The question is can we do better than that.

WT has 2 archers and a spear on a hill, plus the eastern stack. Almost no amount of chariots can threaten the actual city tile.

[Gazglum]

I just want to say that this a really good, detailed thread, and I'm learning a lot from the discussions between you two. Keep it up!

[WilliamLP]

First, I admire your resolve to look at a Civ that is at least 14k ahead in power to all 17 other human players, nearly twice the average, and bemoan the lack of prioritization to axemen.




I decided to try the goofy feint:

- Everything but 1 wounded axe is on the hill 2W of Barbiere as shown.
- I'm leaning heavily on the UI telling us that there is currently no road on the staging tile, else a chariot and 2 workers could mess up our day.
- The axe and spear to the NW move to Traviata, on our road network, where the axe at least can easily come down and join the fight.
- I whipped the axe out of Barber. I don't think the extra pop there helps us immediately as much as an axe does.
- Turandot is still on a Barracks! I want to have a decisive force in the area for sure, before settling another city.
- There are 3 workers in the area, and Traviata isn't a rapidly growing city, so I don't think we desperately need another one. (Though it would always help). There are 3 workers at WT.

This move should present Retep with unpleasant tactical options. Because he doesn't know if we're going to road W, S, or SE from that tile.