[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

[MindyMcCready]

The short of it is that Cheetah's copper is extremely easy to disconnect.

We might need to consider a city to get that second copper. If Cheetah doesn't have spears to fight off those elephants, it'll be over waaaaayyyy to quick for my liking. I suppose we could just build cats for 10T if war breaks out unexpectedly.

I was thinking that Cheetah was the one that fell to Rego in PB5, but that was Yuri. Cheetah played in PB8, but didn't post that much. He also didn't take any real military action as I recall. I'm really wondering what kind of fight he can put up against Ichabod with that much power and Cheetah with that lousy city setup (not that he intended it, I'm sure).

If Ichabod DOW's Cheetah, can we gift him copper then disconnect it and re-connect to cancel the trade? I believe that we can't pillage in our own territory but we could cottage the tile I suppose. Need a lot of workers to make that happen quickly.

On a related note, as civs get alphabet, a second source of copper may be prudent anyway to make spies less effective.

[Ceiliazul]

slow cheetah had pretty exrensive galleon age skirmishes with ScooPin in pb8.

[WilliamLP]

This is very, very good for us. He's bringing himself into conflit with Nakor(?).

That's actually Fintourist / Old Harry on that island who are powers themselves. And conflict is maybe unlikely... because of Alphabet. It means that they both gain from each other. (Or at least Ichabod does.)

But, there's likely to be a pretty competitive land grab between them if that isn't happening already.

I could be wrong and Ichabod intends war with us - and he could do this strictly to undermine us since he can see the land that we have available to us if we can just kill off Retep. But what little I know about Ichabod makes me think that he'll pursue absolute profit/profit relative to the world over profit relative to us.

Yeah, I think you might be right - it does seem unlikely that a rational player would attack us in Ichabod's situation.

The thing I do think is very likely is Bacchus coming hard at Hoffmann. He certainly has motive and maybe opportunity before it can get culture and defenses.

[WilliamLP]

The short of it is that Cheetah's copper is extremely easy to disconnect.

We might need to consider a city to get that second copper. If Cheetah doesn't have spears to fight off those elephants, it'll be over waaaaayyyy to quick for my liking. I suppose we could just build cats for 10T if war breaks out unexpectedly.

...

If Ichabod DOW's Cheetah, can we gift him copper then disconnect it and re-connect to cancel the trade? I believe that we can't pillage in our own territory but we could cottage the tile I suppose. Need a lot of workers to make that happen quickly.

The trouble is that the cities that claim the northwest copper are pretty poor, and also stretch defenses to where we need to worry about Retep's full stack suddenly appearing either in the far north or toward Barbiere, which can no longer be defended from one location.

I don't think gifting our only copper is realistic. Maybe someone who cares a lot about long term world power balance (like Scooticator) would gift cheetah a metal. My thoughts right now are it's neither really our responsibility or something we can afford.

I have a feeling the next big action we're going to see is Bacchus trying to prove that we can't hold Hoffmann, and it might happen really soon. So much so that I'm even considering the wacky walls-first build in there at the moment.

[Ceiliazul]

So much so that I'm even considering the wacky walls-first build in there at the moment.

[MindyMcCready]

The trouble is that the cities that claim the northwest copper are pretty poor,

Yep,....city there is crap. Crap as a city, crap on defense,.....

Iron would be the other choice but we have no jungle to make that worth the cost.

I don't think gifting our only copper is realistic. Maybe someone who cares a lot about long term world power balance (like Scooticator) would gift cheetah a metal. My thoughts right now are it's neither really our responsibility or something we can afford.

Someone might. But Ichabod's not really topping the charts despite decent future potential.

It's more in our interest rather than our responsibility. If Cheetah's killed off quickly our chance of challenging Ichabod over the medium term pretty much dies with Cheetah.

I have a feeling the next big action we're going to see is Bacchus trying to prove that we can't hold Hoffmann, and it might happen really soon. So much so that I'm even considering the wacky walls-first build in there at the moment.

Yep, very likely since he's been forced to build military by both us and now Retep he might as well use it. This is going to be a difficult balancing act for sure. My points on having enough troops in Barbiere primarily apply to the scenario where we don't know that Retep's stack is in Bacchus' lands.

Heck, he's taken a run or two at us which were completely senseless - why wouldn't he take a pseudo-sensible, revenge-oriented run at us?

I really don't see any problem with walls there. Unlike Ichabod, Bacchus has much more reason to go and take a suicidal run at us. 50H for walls to save a 100H settler is well worth it in highly disputed territory. Also, to keep in mind that we could be facing C1+shock + flankingI HA pretty easily.

With full fort W-R-L: 24%-23%-53%
Without fort: W-R-L: 31%-21%-48%

So Bacchus can pretty much get coin-flip odds on our spears and then turn around and hit our axes with chariots or shock HA. So this has the potential to be a pretty ugly battle if we're not careful.

Yep, walls first. Pretty much a necessity in my mind. We've got time + forest hammers for 1 build before peace runs out. We'd never really regret building walls, but we could easily regret building a granary first.

Also, check out Bacchus' civstats. 2 new whips but with some very heavy contemplation the turn before. He's got a lot to contemplate I'd guess. Protecting his cities, hitting Retep's stack or cities; whether we'll nab Retep's cities if he does; whether to hit our new city. Defining moments for both him and us.

[MindyMcCready]

slow cheetah had pretty exrensive galleon age skirmishes with ScooPin in pb8.

Right.

ScooPin, or Pindiscooter did a really amazing job in that game fending the power off despite their size.

[WilliamLP]

ScooPin, or Pindiscooter did a really amazing job in that game fending the power off despite their size.

And their size was pretty good given that they moved completely off their home island, completely eliminating another player in the process!

Anyway, this game... I was logged in at the same time as Bacchus and:




Yeah, it would be nice to have the shrine, wouldn't it?




The next GP is due in 22, with a 75% chance to be a prophet. If that fails... this might be the first game ever where I'd non-ironically consider trading for stone to build Angkor Wat, lol. We could have a monopoly on all the terrible priest-based wonders.

Prophets are so hard to get, yet you always spawn too many in games where you don't need them!




Bacchus actually attacked and killed a Retep chariot while I was logged in. He actually has a chariot with formation! I don't know what that means. Maybe it has just seen a lot of barb action. It seems really unlikely that he'd ever build a chariot out of a city with stables, rather than a Numidian Cav. But as you say, building 3-promo HAs and elephants is not a joke.




This is a little alarming. On that info I'm going walls first in Hoffmann now, and prioritizing spears over markets for a while. We have 4 turns until Bacchus could attack.




Other than the Retep defense force, most of what else we have is split fairly evenly between two fork tiles: 2W of Don Giovanni, and 1SW of Manon.

Believe it or not, we could finish Monarchy in 1 turn! This, because of overflow snowball by over-researching the end of Mono and then Fishing. But sailing is more crucial. I'm thinking Monarchy comes before CoL though (and it will come very quickly), just because we can get immediate benefit from the wines, while we don't have hammers to spare for courthouses right now.

[MindyMcCready]

That's a pretty big power ramp up for Bacchus. Given that Retep split his stack, I'd say more than required to deal with that invasion. Yeah, you're right that he's planning something.

The silver lining is that Retep's power has dropped so our defense requirements have also probably dropped. We should be able to divert one of the spears elsewhere. I'll check the power today to double check and get back to you. If Retep's lost primarily chariots, then we have our choice of axes or spears to defend Barbiere. Even a shock HA should lose/retreat to an axe although its pretty close.

[MindyMcCready]

One whip from Ichabod but some heavy, Bacchus-style contemplation going on there as well.

Are you still working on the walls in LaBoheme and Don Giovanni? If Ichabod takes the first second half we won't get a chance to whip the walls in. Tensions are mounting and I think that we should get those walls in right away to act as a deterrant.

Actually, Ichabod can hit both cities out of the blue. Yeah, let's whip those walls in.