Nothing like the Prodigal Sons: The Odd Couple actually play as themselves.

[Gaspar]

Had a chat with Lewwyn that had nothing to do about the game really, but we did our twice-annual ranking of Civ players, which we always find interesting. If that sort of thing interests you, read in. If not, skip it.

Lewwyn: interesting pregame
predictions
Don't know if I agree that you and noble are clear 2nd choice ^_^
Gaspar: no? who do you favor?
Lewwyn: There's Seven
and everyone else
Gaspar: we're better than the everyone elses though
i agree that the gap between us and seven is larger than the gap between us and everyone else, however
Lewwyn: yeah but you're not large pitboss clear favorite good
Gaspar: no, we're definitely not
Lewwyn: the gap in skill levels decreases dramatically in a large pitboss
Gaspar: agree wholeheartedly
we're going to finish like 10th
Lewwyn: on that roster only Seven has the skill to push through to favorite status IMO
Gaspar: because gavagai is going to choke us and we're going to end up in a foreverwar
Lewwyn: and even then its going to take luck for Seven to get there
Gaspar: yeah
i didnt say this in my post
because it got long and i had stuff to do
Lewwyn: yeah I know
Gaspar: but in a pbem
with this field
or rather
just the 5 best players in it
seven would be like a 70% favorite
in a pitboss, id say he has 35-40% chance to win
i think its more likely one of us, retep, 2metra win than seven, even though seven is the most likely winner overall
Lewwyn: Tier 1) mackoti/seven Tier 2) Krill, novice, Plako Tier 3) serdoa, lewwyn, some other guys
just IMO of the skill rankings
Gaspar: eh
mackoti and seven are alone on tier 1 i agree
but tier 2 is probably bigger
guys like you serdoa others are tier 3 because you're as likely to play the best game ever as to play an absolutely awful game
Lewwyn: eh I don't know maybe I'm just demoralized so I'm seeing higher ranks above me
but yeah thats why I said t3
Gaspar: yeah
Lewwyn: T2 has to be more consistant
Gaspar: i just think novice probably is tier3
and i think theres a few other in tier 2
Lewwyn: are you thinking LP and kyan?
Gaspar: novice hasnt won a game in a while either
kyans probably tier 2, but thats not entirely fair, since he quits if hes not winning
Lewwyn: I should play a PBEM and go get a win
yeah exactly
Gaspar: yeah
Lewwyn: Kyan always quits
Gaspar: maybe you're right
Lewwyn: so I can't put him in T2
Gaspar: krill and plako are the only guys i sort of think will be in the running no matter what
Lewwyn: and LP got diplo help for PB4
yeah exactly
Gaspar: PB4 is basically a non-game
Lewwyn: yep
Gaspar: PBEM is a much truer test of skill than PB
Lewwyn: so mack and seven T1, krill and plako T2 then T3 is the great but more inconsistant players
Gaspar: because large maps with lots of players introduce a much higher degree of randomness
yeah
Lewwyn: I think scooter and pin might be T3 when they are a team but individually are T4
Gaspar: lets say mack/7; krill plako;
then T3 is you, serdoa, rego, novice, pindicator, noble
Lewwyn: ehhhh
Gaspar: im t4, scooter also t4
Lewwyn: noble is borderline T3 IMO
Gaspar: noble will never play alone, so we dont know for sure
Lewwyn: yeah
Gaspar: but hes one of the few who constantly improve
Lewwyn: I improve!
Lewwyn: pb13 is interesting, I mean Mack is going to win, but there's a lot of competitiveness
Gaspar: theres gotta be a few more t3's we're not thinking of
Lewwyn: well not have to be
Gaspar: ceiliazul i think probably
Lewwyn: Ichabod is t4 I think
Gaspar: ichabod is t4 for sure
commodore also t4
Gaspar: most of the regulars who aren't doormats at t4
Lewwyn: but I agree
pb8 showed the good and bad of comm
Gaspar: we can win if it breaks right but we're just as likely to lay a complete egg
Lewwyn: he should have run away with the game
but couldn't
Gaspar: yeah
Lewwyn: Azza is... hard to classify
Gaspar: i havent read recent stuff
Lewwyn: T5?
Gaspar: but id put him in T5 which is competitive loser
Lewwyn: he's doing well in pb13 but then I haven't been attacking him
Gaspar: then we call t6 uncompetitive loser
then t7 doormat
and finally t8 the worst of the worst
Lewwyn: Nakor is T6
Lewwyn: err T7
Gaspar: nakor is t7 for sure
Lewwyn: Kuro T8
Gaspar: kuro t8 definitely
Lewwyn: Jowy T7
Gaspar: ad-hoc also t8
jowy t7
TT t8
Lewwyn: oh TT
oh yeah I'd put Bigger low T3 high T4
Gaspar: no fucking way
hes straight t4
Lewwyn: haha
Gaspar: just because he dumblucked into a pitboss win does not put him t3
Lewwyn: well that was the only thing I had putting him into borderline t3
ASM is like t6?
or T7?
Luddite is T4
Gaspar: you need a minimum of 2 wins to be t3 or higher, imo
luddite is t3 i think
he reminds me of you
fucking brilliant or fucking awful
no in between
Lewwyn: lol
I have in between games
Gaspar: only because you play so many
most of your games are great or awful
Lewwyn: PBEM18 where I lost to mackoti when he was CRE/AGG next to Nakor
Gaspar: yeah, i guess so
Lewwyn: I actually played that really well
Gaspar: id consider that more great than awful
that was the game that convinced me you were good
Lewwyn: orly
Gaspar: well
PBEM6 was over before you started it
Lewwyn: pbem 22 convinced me I was good
XD
Gaspar: and you played pretty weak in 14
22 was your magnum opus
Lewwyn: 29 was just another Mack bash
jeez... I've played so many games against mack
Gaspar: yeah same
would you agree with me btw
that hes the most demoralizing to play against
Lewwyn: 18, 29, pb 10
Gaspar: even seven gives you a little bit of hope
24, 29, PB4, 47
Lewwyn: yes he is like a bulldozer who runs over you and then a dumptruck who lays gravel over you
Gaspar: though 47 never happened
Gaspar: ive played such weird games against such weird players
Lewwyn: I've played... PBEM 6, 14, 18, (pseudo19), 22, 29, PB6, PB8, PB10, currently PB13, PB15
Gaspar: 21 also, pseudo-ish
Lewwyn: pbem 6 was my first MP action, and against Seven, 14 I failed miserable, 18 against mack, 19 with seven, 21 with noble, 22, 29 against mac and seven,
Lewwyn: and yeah 32 was when serdoa took PHI and had anairport in his cap >_>
Gaspar: lol
i hate pitbosses
but it seems like nobody starts pbems anymore
Lewwyn: If I'm not playing against mack or Seven I either win or come out close to top except for 14
Gaspar: i only jumped in this because it was like the first non-pure greens, non-krillmod game in forever
Lewwyn: you realize if we played on a team together in a PBEM
seven and mack would want to play
>_>
Gaspar: yeah
trying to avoid seven and mack
is why i dont propose games anymore
Lewwyn: hows that working out lol
Gaspar: and yet
i still got stuck with fucking seven
i almost withdrew when he signed up
Lewwyn: at least its a PB
Gaspar: yeah
thats the only reason i stayed
Lewwyn: if you want to play a game together maybe we go find some scrubs on CFC
Gaspar: i log on cfc once a year
Lewwyn: I don't have an account
XD
Gaspar: lol
Lewwyn: we could go to WPC's website
Gaspar: lmao
i still have a poly account too, somewhere
that was actually my first civ website
Lewwyn: Cyneheard T4?
Gaspar: i remember some dude writing a lengthy playthrough on the cs slingshot
yeah, cyne is t4
Lewwyn: Brick?
I'd say T5
Gaspar: t5
boldly? I don't know that I've followed any of his games but he's seemed sharp in the pb16 thread.
Lewwyn: Nicolae is difficult because he won't play stuff competition
boldy T5
Gaspar: yeah, he probably belongs in t3 on skill but id bump him to t4 because hes a puss
Lewwyn: yup
thoth
T4
Gaspar: t4
ffh t1 though lol
Lewwyn: he's doing well in the pb15 pitboss
Gaspar: hes got great skill
minimal focus though
Lewwyn: Ellimist t5 BTS, T2 FFH?
Gaspar: lol was just thinking about him
thats about right
Lewwyn: Warriorknight?
Gaspar: t4-t5
hes right on the edge
t3 ffh
everyone goes up at least a level on ffh since its so much easier
Lewwyn: oleDavy
Gaspar: t5
Lewwyn: aye
Gaspar: yuri t5 or t6?
Lewwyn: ew
he beat me in that duel but I picked a shit leader
T6
Gaspar: but yeah, high t6 is about right
Lewwyn: 2metra?
Gaspar: did we mention zak? t3?
Lewwyn: T4
Gaspar: t4 for 2metra
Lewwyn: Zak doesn't really play though
Gaspar: hes played a couple
probably t4, hasnt proved enough
Lewwyn: but with people, yeah 4
your PB16 roster has a lot of unknowns
Gaspar: tell me about it
its a greens game with a couple sharks
sian t5 or t6?
Lewwyn: After pb 15 and 13 finish and you get closer to 16 we'll have to see about a pbem
sian... competitive loser
so t5?
Gaspar: yeah, thats 5
Lewwyn: always defending
Gaspar: AT also t5
heres a toughone
shoot the moon
Lewwyn: T4
Gaspar: t4 yeah
Lewwyn: he's the reason oledavey, WK were competetive in pb6
Gaspar: ruff t5 I think
Lewwyn: sulla?
Gaspar: sulla is t3
Lewwyn: This is the best ranking we've ever done
Gaspar: yeah
we've stuck with it longer than we normally do lol
Lewwyn: yeah I have to head off to lunch though
Gaspar: its alright, I think we covered most of the relevant players

[Merovech]

Cries at not being mentioned.

In all seriousness, I'm guessing that I just haven't played enough games. I've played...2 and a half, I guess, and none on my own. So yeah, the only thing that I find really weird is that you ranked Sullla so low, I would have thought he would get a T2. I'm also guessing that you are heavily weighing against games from more than a few years ago, though you don't specifically state it. Is that correct?

[Gaspar]

Cries at not being mentioned.

In all seriousness, I'm guessing that I just haven't played enough games. I've played...2 and a half, I guess, and none on my own. So yeah, the only thing that I find really weird is that you ranked Sullla so low, I would have thought he would get a T2. I'm also guessing that you are heavily weighing against games from more than a few years ago, though you don't specifically state it. Is that correct?

Well, first off T3 isn't low - that's where most of the very good players are. There are only 4 players in the top 2 tiers and they've won roughly a billion games between them. Plako is the only debatable inclusion there, since he's had tremendous amounts of bad luck in his games, but IMO he's a lock to be competitive in the way nobody below him is. Sullla's very good, but of course you have to weigh towards recency when doing a current ranking and the fact remains that he's only ever won one game on RB. In fact, he's the only player we put in t3 with only one win. That's largely because he doesn't play much - he only has 3 games to his credit. But if you ask me if I think the metagame passed him by slightly I would say that I think it has. I think if he played a game, he'd be among the people you'd think could win, however.

As far as you're concerned, I don't recall reading any of your games. Anyone with that distinction didn't get a ranking. Maybe Noble who reads everything will chime in.

[Merovech]

Cries at not being mentioned.

In all seriousness, I'm guessing that I just haven't played enough games. I've played...2 and a half, I guess, and none on my own. So yeah, the only thing that I find really weird is that you ranked Sullla so low, I would have thought he would get a T2. I'm also guessing that you are heavily weighing against games from more than a few years ago, though you don't specifically state it. Is that correct?

Well, first off T3 isn't low - that's where most of the very good players are. There are only 4 players in the top 2 tiers and they've won roughly a billion games between them. Plako is the only debatable inclusion there, since he's had tremendous amounts of bad luck in his games, but IMO he's a lock to be competitive in the way nobody below him is. Sullla's very good, but of course you have to weigh towards recency when doing a current ranking and the fact remains that he's only ever won one game on RB. In fact, he's the only player we put in t3 with only one win. That's largely because he doesn't play much - he only has 3 games to his credit. But if you ask me if I think the metagame passed him by slightly I would say that I think it has. I think if he played a game, he'd be among the people you'd think could win, however.

As far as you're concerned, I don't recall reading any of your games. Anyone with that distinction didn't get a ranking. Maybe Noble who reads everything will chime in.

Okay, that's a pretty good point, actually. I probably didn't need to spoil this, but I did so anyway.

[NobleHelium]

I'd put Merovech at tier 5 or tier 6.

[Lewwyn]

Cries at not being mentioned.

In all seriousness, I'm guessing that I just haven't played enough games. I've played...2 and a half, I guess, and none on my own. So yeah, the only thing that I find really weird is that you ranked Sullla so low, I would have thought he would get a T2. I'm also guessing that you are heavily weighing against games from more than a few years ago, though you don't specifically state it. Is that correct?

We missed a lot of people, RB is a big place after all. Playing solo is much easier to evaluate and honestly these are Gaspar and I's personal rankings so if we haven't played against you or read your games (I've only really read one of yours) then we probably won't rank you. And yeah, lot's missed, no question.

On the subject of Sullla, I don't think T3 is low! Honestly, for T1 and T2 we ended up putting only put like 4 people there. I think those four would beat Sullla. Given that he hasn't played them (PB2 featured plako being truly suicide rushed and even then he climbed back into the game after surviving it but had no direct confrontation with Sullla, PB4 Plako was definitely ahead of Locke) makes it even hard to debate that.

Feel free to disagree with us.

[Lewwyn]

Looks like Gaspar beat me to it, and we're pretty much on the same wavelength there.

Yeah, i don't think you need the spoilers tag lol.

[Gaspar]

Yeah, not sure why I stuck to spoilers. I only spoilered the original because it was so long.

[BRickAstley]

I've never been that decent so I'm appreciative of that T5 ranking you gave me.

[Merovech]

I'd put Merovech at tier 5 or tier 6.

My heart is breaking (though Noble's can't have read my PB12 thread-I'd hope that'd disqualify me from T6, but I doubt it would give me much of a claim to anything other than T5). I wouldn't be too sad with a 5 ranking atm. Still, this does make me want to play a game solo sometime. Hmm, I wonder if I can resurrect, or at least reincarnate, the winter break game idea.

Not sure that I actually mentioned this, but thanks for the read.