[spoilers]Oh Canada! Victoria has a Commodore, eh?

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Commodore is always like this, he just got stuck with the warmongerer mindset after a few unfortunate circumstances, and due to that has had to become warmongerer in order to survive since everyone treats him as a rabid dog.

Or so he tells me.

Apologist. I guess next you're going to try to convince me that the BCS is a good idea and not actually just a money grab...

And yes, I fully anticipate your response that goes something along lines of "As long as Auburn wins". Garbage!

[BRickAstley]

Commodore is always like this, he just got stuck with the warmongerer mindset after a few unfortunate circumstances, and due to that has had to become warmongerer in order to survive since everyone treats him as a rabid dog.

Or so he tells me.

Apologist. I guess next you're going to try to convince me that the BCS is a good idea and not actually just a money grab...

And yes, I fully anticipate your response that goes something along lines of "As long as Auburn wins". Garbage!

Fuck the BCS! Do you not remember 2004? I'll say glory to Lord Saban before I cry out praises of that buggered system.

[Commodore]

So I'll be writing up some further examples the rest of this week, if anyone wants to provide counters I'm delighted to talk about 'em. But there is also a game on...

So! Two stated goals for Turn 150; Fiscal Jackhammer is up to 35 cottages, but I'm also pursuing a much more financially painful plan, 20 by 150. Welcome Devon to the flock, bringing total to 16 cities thus far. So four more in the next seventeen turns, should be doable. Note the elegantly timed work boat hooking crabs. And something horrific in front of the other crabs...


I'm ignoring the warning bells that sounds and kicking off the chops for the AP anyway. 1/3rd of the way done; might as well try.


Costs are up, although I've now hit the max #cities maint. So now it's only a ton, not a crapton, per new city.


HBR next turn, war elephants for defensive flashing.

[fluffyflyingpig]

Commodore is always like this, he just got stuck with the warmongerer mindset after a few unfortunate circumstances, and due to that has had to become warmongerer in order to survive since everyone treats him as a rabid dog.

Or so he tells me.

Apologist. I guess next you're going to try to convince me that the BCS is a good idea and not actually just a money grab...

And yes, I fully anticipate your response that goes something along lines of "As long as Auburn wins". Garbage!

Fuck the BCS! Do you not remember 2004? I'll say glory to Lord Saban before I cry out praises of that buggered system.

The process worked and USC won the national title it rightfully deserved.


And screw Saban.

[Commodore]

Corollary One: Aggressive Land UUs Are Awful

So here's the thing; I think we tend to look at UUs all wrong (and I think most of the core veterans have internalized what I'm about to say, but I haven't seen it articulated). If the First Maxim is true, then land war against a competent opponent is a bad idea if you have knights or if you have cataphracts; if you're advancing with redcoats or with rifles; if you're using impi or using chariots. Against an incompetent/crippled opponent, you're in good shape using knights just as well as cataphracts, muskets just as well as musketeers. Let's look at some of the "good" UUs and see where they've been used well, or misused.

Cataphracts:

Okay, yes, I know, it's cool now to beat up on Byzantium nowadays. The common argument I hear is "sure, cataphracts are wonderful, but look at those start techs! Wheel/Mysticism, ugh! Practically, you never make it to cataphracts in time to make up for the start." Well. Hum. I mean sure I'll agree that Wheel/Mysticism is a bad set of start techs, but I'm becoming increasingly skeptical that that is what is the worst aspect of the civ. I think the worst part is the fact that it has an attractive knight unit. People go into the game thinking "phracts woo!" secure in the knowledge that the most broken offensive horse unit in the game can run over everything. But here's the thing. They don't, practically. I'll use two Byzantine games for examples:
PBEM 14:

If you get the chance, you should really check this game out, it was a diplo-on game with five explosive personalities and some very interesting gameplay. The game was called a draw after Scooter and his manifold cataphracts romped over Gaspar's second core; turn pace had slowed to a crawl and Gaspar and Scooter were fairly even after Scooter slaughtered five or six decent cities. But here's the thing: Scooter's successful overland campaign was augmented and enhanced by a large stack of keshiks from Serdoa, provided due to diplomacy, and he could hit Gaspar safely because he had secured an odd alliance from Serdoa and Lewwyn, promising each the other's land! This is about as successful a 'phracting as has ever been seen, but that's entirely because of the diplomacy...and Scooter would have done the requisite damage just as easily with a super-stack of knights.
PBEM 38:

I'm proud/ashamed of this game in equal parts. I think I played very very well, but I am not at all proud of engaging Noble in the banter thread and devolving into pissing matches. However, of interest here is Ichabod and Mist, playing Victoria of Byzantium. Now one thing interesting is that they actually were the early leaders, using Victoria (best Imp leader ever) to more than overcome the techs. They built, and built, and built up, pushing Yuri for more land...and then phracteggedon was come. And it completely, utterly, ruined them. They made initial gains against Oledavy, but nothing major, and he retook everything once his musket(eers) began to roll out. They turned north to me, very underdefended...and I was able to whip/draft up enough to stop them butt cold. Sure, it damaged me and crippled Dave, but it was *not* a good idea...because meanwhile, Gaspar romped over Yuri with plain ole knights (sorry Yuri buddy, you've improved, but back then you didn't check power and you were halfway crippled, not a competent victim) and went on to win the game.

Praetorians:

Now here's another classic; generally paired with Aggressive, these Strength 8 monsters are terrifying maces an era early...but here's a kicker: Aggressive Rome has never won a normal game. Even under Mackoti; money quote there, "i shoud hav jsut gone for knigs". The normal reasoning I hear for that one is their era; rushing is bad, etc, etc. But I think the problem is more fundamental...they are used like land units marching over land. Axes, horse archers, catapults, are all tools a defender gets to use to waste them as they waddle on, the exchange rates are never worth it.
But Rome has won a game...under Seven Spirits. Who used his (non-Aggressive) Praetorians as I believe they should be used; as premiere defensive units. They truly are excellent for that, and I think defensive UUs are very good, discouraging others from land wars with yourself is always a good thing.
That's not to say I think Praetorians are bad units; I think I'd love to use them as defenders and as amphibious attackers. But as an aggressively used land unit? Kill me now.

I could go on, and I might later, but I think you'll see this pattern repeated with all other UUs. Impis can choke (skirmish) like nobody's business, but never did a FFA winner use them to conduct a land war in the main. Musketeers die like muskets or knights when in hostile culture; although on the defense they are wonderful. Show me a winner who mass-drafted his UU (redcoat, jan, whatever) and I'm going to bet those draftees either crushed incompetents or were charging off of boats.

I'd love to hear any counter-examples anyone can come up with. But I think, generally:
If your UU means you are planning to fight a land war...then it is leading to a bad idea.
Incompetents will die to a horse archer as fast as to a keshik, or to catapults as easily as hwatcha.

[Krill]

Please keep posting this stuff

EDIT: I'd also point out how this applies to militaristic traits in base BtS and as some of the reasoning for why they were changed.

[flugauto]

1. PBEMs are quick speed, so different from PB's normal speed.
1b. PBEM38, imagine them attacking Yuris.
2. Look at PB2, praets were used to a great effect there.

[Commodore]

Please keep posting this stuff

EDIT: I'd also point out how this applies to militaristic traits in base BtS and as some of the reasoning for why they were changed.

Thanks Krill, I'm planning on it. Like I said, I think this isn't revolutionary to a lot of RB, but I've never seen it articulated. Plus, I normally see the context as "early warring bad" not "land war against competency always bad".

1. PBEMs are quick speed, so different from PB's normal speed.
1b. PBEM38, imagine them attacking Yuris.
2. Look at PB2, praets were used to a great effect there.

Thanks for the input, flug, by the way I am really looking forward to seeing you play in PB17, you're my top seed.
1. Yeeees and no. It is different, true, but the difference is one of degree, not type. In normal war generally has wider windows of profit, but land war against a competent opponent is still bad. Going by 38, that was actually my point. Mistabod would have done far better against Yuri...like Gaspar did with knights. Yuri was damaged and out of it, so he was prime target...UU or vanilla version.
2. Praets were used to effect, certainly, but I'm not sure about a great one. Rome lost, badly, there, despite being next door to a player who died to a scouting warrior if I am not mistaken. Sure they mauled the ever-living hell out of Plako, but...to what end?

An aside, please nobody take offense at the term "competency". It's not an evaluation of the person but rather the civ-game opponent. And like I said, cripples count as incompetent too, through no fault of their own (often).

[SevenSpirits]

Please keep posting this stuff

Yes. It's great.

[Euler]

Do you think you benefited from your first Zulu war in PB8? My impression was that you were in a stronger position after you took all of their land.