Rebalancing Civ4: RtR Mod

[SevenSpirits]

Just to pick up on this: I actually don't care one bit how it is implemented or what it gives. But the way it is worded in the game is misleading and - I think - it should be not too hard to change it so that it actually states which unit-types really get the bonus and also that it is only G2 (though the second one at least is true to the wording, just unexpected).

Fair enough - but don't blame it on RBMod, it's like that in BTS too.

[novice]

Anything else that needs looking at?

Disable metal pops.

Also, the new SoZ changes the game somewhat, making military pumps even stronger. If the aim of the change was to keep the ivory-enabled, culture-heavy wonder at aesthetics but removing its war weariness effect, just make it cheaper and let it have no effect apart from culture and gpp.

[Commodore]

Anything else that needs looking at?

Disable metal pops.

Also, the new SoZ changes the game somewhat, making military pumps even stronger. If the aim of the change was to keep the ivory-enabled, culture-heavy wonder at aesthetics but removing its war weariness effect, just make it cheaper and let it have no effect apart from culture and gpp.

*more make metal pops enabled/disabled by random events trigger.

SoZ isn't ivory boosted anymore unless I'm mistaken.

[dtay]

SoZ is not Ivory boosted, though is cheaper in base hammers.

Not sure whether I think I like the change or not yet. And this is as the guy who built it in PB13. Well, more specifically, whether i like the change compared to other possible changes or just removing it. Its definitely better in squo-RBMod than base-BTS.

[Krill]

http://killerkrill.wordpress.com/2012/05...t-changed/

Removing metal pops is trivial, in the sense that it is possible to do but I don't know how to do it (but only an XML change).

[Krill]

FWIW there are a lot of reasons that units pumps are stronger (ie more viable and prevalent strategy) but I don't think SoZ is the reason. I think the nerf to slavery is the main one. Another would be how the HE is used (I don't think the various strategies for using the HE have been focused on much TBH).

[novice]

FWIW there are a lot of reasons that units pumps are stronger (ie more viable and prevalent strategy) but I don't think SoZ is the reason. I think the nerf to slavery is the main one. Another would be how the HE is used (I don't think the various strategies for using the HE have been focused on much TBH).

That reminds me though, it shouldn't be possible to get a HE unit from barb fights.

You could also move the HE to Drama to spread the goodies out a little.

[dtay]

HE to drama just seems like a change for changes sake. Does anyone consider literature an OP tech at the moment? Certainly it CAN be a tech to decide to gun for, but from my reading/lurking it seems like a lot choose not to go there for a long time after its available/reasonable.

Drama is probably somewhat underwhelming at the moment, but I don't think every tech in the whole tech tree really needs to be equally compelling. Plus Drama isn't exactly worthless, Globe is great, theatres are... situational I guess, and a tech that goes to Music and Philosophy has its uses given both are potentially desirable.

Idk, maybe its just my sense of how "balance mods" should work, but I feel like they're best if you keep as close to the original as possible, only making changes to correct actual problems and always through the path of least change. This makes shifting back and forth between mod and base game substantially easier and smoother overall.

This is also why I agree with WilliamLP about the Open Borders, I just don't think alphabet being subpar is sufficient cause to alter the meta of traderoutes/open-borders, since the previous trade-routes/open borders system wasn't broken and the presumption should be against change.

The Open Borders shift does have substantial game altering effects. By putting OB on a tech that isn't otherwise necessary, it makes the choice to acquire Open Borders capability a choice as opposed to an inevitably result. That creates the (rather interesting actually) game of hwo to handle your International Routes situation. Everyone HAS to get writing just because of where it leads + libraries, but Alphabet, open borders or no, is skippable until Printing Press.

I don't necessarily agree with WilliamLP that the change is really BAD per se, I just think a strategy-altering (indeed strategy creating) change like that should only be made for a clear, necessary balance reason, and a subpar alphabet tech just doesn't seem important enough to me.

[Krill]

FWIW there are a lot of reasons that units pumps are stronger (ie more viable and prevalent strategy) but I don't think SoZ is the reason. I think the nerf to slavery is the main one. Another would be how the HE is used (I don't think the various strategies for using the HE have been focused on much TBH).

That reminds me though, it shouldn't be possible to get a HE unit from barb fights.

You could also move the HE to Drama to spread the goodies out a little.

HE has always been available from barbs, because there is a huge advantage to Charismatic leaders if it isn't (can get a 3 promotion unit through building without war), IMP leaders (just dump the first GG onto a unit)...on top of that, how do you even implement such a change? Any unit that gains a single XP is no longer eligible to unlock HE? I suppose the only way to do it would be to lower the maximum XP gained from barb fights, but I'd have to ask why that's a good change?

HE to drama just seems like a change for changes sake. Does anyone consider literature an OP tech at the moment? Certainly it CAN be a tech to decide to gun for, but from my reading/lurking it seems like a lot choose not to go there for a long time after its available/reasonable.

Drama is probably somewhat underwhelming at the moment, but I don't think every tech in the whole tech tree really needs to be equally compelling. Plus Drama isn't exactly worthless, Globe is great, theatres are... situational I guess, and a tech that goes to Music and Philosophy has its uses given both are potentially desirable.

Idk, maybe its just my sense of how "balance mods" should work, but I feel like they're best if you keep as close to the original as possible, only making changes to correct actual problems and always through the path of least change. This makes shifting back and forth between mod and base game substantially easier and smoother overall.

This is also why I agree with WilliamLP about the Open Borders, I just don't think alphabet being subpar is sufficient cause to alter the meta of traderoutes/open-borders, since the previous trade-routes/open borders system wasn't broken and the presumption should be against change.

The Open Borders shift does have substantial game altering effects. By putting OB on a tech that isn't otherwise necessary, it makes the choice to acquire Open Borders capability a choice as opposed to an inevitably result. That creates the (rather interesting actually) game of hwo to handle your International Routes situation. Everyone HAS to get writing just because of where it leads + libraries, but Alphabet, open borders or no, is skippable until Printing Press.

I don't necessarily agree with WilliamLP that the change is really BAD per se, I just think a strategy-altering (indeed strategy creating) change like that should only be made for a clear, necessary balance reason, and a subpar alphabet tech just doesn't seem important enough to me.

OB weren't moved to Alphabet because Alphabet needed to be made a more worthwhile tech, OB was moved away from Writing because early access to essentially free commerce made Writing an incredibly strong tech. Plus the effect that OB has with limited and asymmetrical map knowledge (and map layout) meant that the upper limit on the value of Writing made it occasionally a one right choice. Alphabet was just the best place to put OB.

[WilliamLP]

The map being known to everyone at writing changes the game even more - imagine how different the character of PB13 would be if nobody knew what the whole world looked like without paper, and needed to send off distant scouts of their own.

Without the OB and Map repositioning, I'd never be tempted to play a BtS game again, but they change the game so much in a way that's not to my taste (nothing to do with balance) that I'm not sure I wouldn't rather have the balance warts just to play a game that's in the spirit of the original in terms of having scouting and exploration be a much more major and crucial part of the game after the first 50 turns are over, and not hinging on phony wars to move units around the world.

Admittedly, part of it is that I'm not a strong enough or experienced enough player to be bored of the same 12 leaders and Civs showing up in every game.