Rebalancing Civ4: RtR Mod

[dtay]

OB weren't moved to Alphabet because Alphabet needed to be made a more worthwhile tech, OB was moved away from Writing because early access to essentially free commerce made Writing an incredibly strong tech. Plus the effect that OB has with limited and asymmetrical map knowledge (and map layout) meant that the upper limit on the value of Writing made it occasionally a one right choice. Alphabet was just the best place to put OB.

That makes more sense, but I feel like making writing "not the one right choice" is just impossible given its location in the tech tree. You need it to get to everything. Certainly there's early writing (right after your pottery) and somewhat-later writing (getting something like sailing or religion-stuff), but I feel like when people make the calculation to go after sailing or religion-techs its because they have some goal (like TGL, Oracle, religion) that's going to make them (very barely) delay writing, Open Borders or not. Would someone reasonably make the calculation "I would chase TGL if writing had no Open Borders, but I won't b/c it does"?

I realize this means base BTS results in basically automatic open-borders capability for everyone, but the problem is changing that substantially alters strategy, and its unclear why open-borders for everyone makes the game worse or unbalanced. Its somewhat like the "slavery has become part of the game" thing, except unlike slavery Open-Borders at writing doesn't really foreclose other options (read: civics) that would otherwise be viable, so the downside is even smaller.

Though, similar to WilliamLP, I really like the mod overall. Trait balances are great, early tech mods (hunting) are great, weaker 'phants, great. Kudos particularly on the slavery fix, it keeps the interesting mechanic and doesn't slow down the game too much, while making other civics viable sooner.

[Krill]

I realize this means base BTS results in basically automatic open-borders capability for everyone, but the problem is changing that substantially alters strategy, and its unclear why open-borders for everyone makes the game worse or unbalanced. Its somewhat like the "slavery has become part of the game" thing, except unlike slavery Open-Borders at writing doesn't really foreclose other options (read: civics) that would otherwise be viable, so the downside is even smaller.

OB for everyone doesn't actually mean trade routes for everyone though, due to the asymmetrical map knowledge and lay out (rivers, coast etc). So early OB due to rushing to Writing usually means that certain players will benefit significantly more than others. If the variance between the value of OB were lower, it wouldn't be such a problem, but frankly OB can be worth an awful lot. What moving OB back alters is that players that would benefit from early trades routes due to the asymmetrical map, don't.

What I mean by a one right choice for Writing, is that it has to be researched quickly to gain those benefits as there is more value in the effects of Writing compared to other research options; I agree that Writing is always going to be researched because it's a gateway tech, but it's a gateway tech to more expensive, Classical era techs. It ought to be reasonable to expect Writing to sometimes be researched as one of the later ancient era techs, rather than maybe the fourth or fifth tech. With OB available at Writing, sometimes that early Writing is the right choice simply because it can give you extra commerce per turn just from getting OB with someone you met and you have a river or coastal connection to them. But that is because of map lay out, rather than any other reason, and not every player will have such access to cheap trade routes at such an early part of the game.

Would someone reasonably make the calculation "I would chase TGL if writing had no Open Borders, but I won't b/c it does"?

I actually think this happens, but it's phrased differently: I would chase TGL but I think I have other things that are more important, are a better use of hammers and beakers. ie I would chase TGL but I think [Y tech is more valuable to me; I need to focus more on expansion; someone else will beat me to TGL]. TGL is perhaps not the greatest example because of how it interacts with OB anyway though.

[dtay]

Ok. That makes sense, hadn't really thought about the geography factor. I personally think the game-alteration still outweighs, but I understand the rationale better. Game-alternation v balance-fix can be difficult to weigh in non-obvious cases (elephants, financial).

[Krill]

I understand that there are going to be effects of the changes beyond those intended, you're right in that it's always a case of balancing whether those changes are worthwhile. I do think that OB and map trading positioning in the tech tree can be tightened up, but how that happens I'm not 100% sure about.

For example, I wrote earlier:

All that said, there is an idea that OB and Map trading can both be available at Alphabet, and that this manages every problem inherent with OB; it just doesn't deal with the lack of map knowledge to assess player positions very well. The issue is that loading so much onto a single tech means that the cost of the tech is difficult to balance so it's either a nobrainer for first classical tech, delays economic techs/HBR too much long.

Such a change would help mitigate the early map trading concerns but wouldn't do anything for OB; then again, because of how OB is affected by map knowledge such changes need to be considered concurrently.

[novice]

FWIW there are a lot of reasons that units pumps are stronger (ie more viable and prevalent strategy) but I don't think SoZ is the reason. I think the nerf to slavery is the main one. Another would be how the HE is used (I don't think the various strategies for using the HE have been focused on much TBH).

That reminds me though, it shouldn't be possible to get a HE unit from barb fights.

You could also move the HE to Drama to spread the goodies out a little.

HE has always been available from barbs, because there is a huge advantage to Charismatic leaders if it isn't (can get a 3 promotion unit through building without war), IMP leaders (just dump the first GG onto a unit)...on top of that, how do you even implement such a change? Any unit that gains a single XP is no longer eligible to unlock HE? I suppose the only way to do it would be to lower the maximum XP gained from barb fights, but I'd have to ask why that's a good change?

Ideally I don't think Heroic Epic should be available to someone that's never been at war. (Maybe the literal interpretation of that is a possible implementation, actually.) Being able to build the Heroic Epic should be one of the advantages of having had a hot war IMO. There are already enough disincentives for warring, being able to barb farm your way to the Heroic Epic is not needed.

I was thinking the implementation would be to lower the maximum XP from barb fights, yeah. You can't get a great general from barbs, even as Imp. So you'd need to lower it below the Cha limit of 8XP, I suppose. It's not ideal, you can still barb farm it up to 7XP and then declare on someone for the eighth XP, but yeah.

Like you say there's still the Cha+Barracks+Stables+Theo+Vassalage combo for 9XP units out of the gate, but maybe that's ok, being such a big investment? If not I guess you need a more robust implementation where only units who've won (possibly exclusively) non-barb fights are eligible for the Heroic Epic. That would require a save format change so I don't think it's worth the trouble.

All in all I guess it's easier to play with no barbs, which on balance is what I prefer anyway.

[WilliamLP]

OB for everyone doesn't actually mean trade routes for everyone though, due to the asymmetrical map knowledge and lay out (rivers, coast etc). So early OB due to rushing to Writing usually means that certain players will benefit significantly more than others. If the variance between the value of OB were lower, it wouldn't be such a problem, but frankly OB can be worth an awful lot. What moving OB back alters is that players that would benefit from early trades routes due to the asymmetrical map, don't.

As I see it, yes, maps are asymmetrical and fair map making is a tough job, see the news at 11:00. But the ways that OB has asymmetric value are interesting: They favor not scout and warrior choking your neighbors. They also favor early sailing and scouting the coast and island chains and perhaps investment in roading to contacts. In the worst case, OB still has a lot of value for just the minimum 1 domestic commerce.

With RBMod, starting near someone who techs Alphabet and who finds you over the sea is very large advantage, which I believe is more asymmetric than BtS. Now you don't have to research Alphabet (which is a large and out of the way investment, quite unlike Writing), and you have a big gpt lead over your neighbour that the Alphabet player may not find for a while. Examples of where this created a big differential are probably spoilers.

Compared to Bronze working, which enables at least 4 crucial features, Writing is the same price or less, and enables one crucial feature and one nice one (libraries). I see it, like Dtay said, to be a core part of the game like slavery and granaries, maybe not "balanced" per se, since the techs are essential, but the techs are cheap and available very early in everyone's path. And early Bronze and Pottery, before a certain time, are indeed both examples of "one correct way to play".

[Krill]

Ideally I don't think Heroic Epic should be available to someone that's never been at war. (Maybe the literal interpretation of that is a possible implementation, actually.) Being able to build the Heroic Epic should be one of the advantages of having had a hot war IMO. There are already enough disincentives for warring, being able to barb farm your way to the Heroic Epic is not needed.

I'm not sure the literal interpretation of that is any use though, if all it is measuring is if someone has alt+clicked your name on the scoreboard. I think that without barb farming though, there is no way that the HE would be built without using a GG, simply because of the XP needed to reach the level 4 unit (and lowering that requirement obviously breaks the system anyway with barracks and stables) is unobtainable from even 1 hot war. Even building units with a barracks would mean that a unit would need to win several battles, heal after every one...and that takes a significantly long time unless you win 2 low odds battles (and at that point such a system favours those that get lucky). I don't think that forcing the first GG to be used to unlock an NW is a reasonable requirement.

I was thinking the implementation would be to lower the maximum XP from barb fights, yeah. You can't get a great general from barbs, even as Imp. So you'd need to lower it below the Cha limit of 8XP, I suppose. It's not ideal, you can still barb farm it up to 7XP and then declare on someone for the eighth XP, but yeah.

IMP benefits simply because they need to get 15XP on normal speed (10XP on quick). Needing to invest less hammers in military and winning fewer battles is still an advantage. I think this implementation would actually lead to even more gamey war declarations just to unlock one NW. Which is ironic to be discussing this at the same time that people are saying early war declarations don't matter because of lack of early OB.

Like you say there's still the Cha+Barracks+Stables+Theo+Vassalage combo for 9XP units out of the gate, but maybe that's ok, being such a big investment? If not I guess you need a more robust implementation where only units who've won (possibly exclusively) non-barb fights are eligible for the Heroic Epic. That would require a save format change so I don't think it's worth the trouble.

I think that breaking the save format is not something that I truly understand the complexities of, so yeah, I kinda prefer to not do anything that does that. I think that any system that forces the player to keep track of the barb/non-barb XP is a complete none starter for an idea because it is an overly complex fix to something that isn't really a problem though.

[Krill]

But the ways that OB has asymmetric value are interesting: They favor not scout and warrior choking your neighbors.

Not really. They favour not declaring war on your OB partner, everyone else is fair game.

They also favor early sailing and scouting the coast and island chains and perhaps investment in roading to contacts. In the worst case, OB still has a lot of value for just the minimum 1 domestic commerce.

Those points are still necessary whether OB is available at Writing or not. I think your complaint here stems from your distaste for map trading? Though I don't understand your point about domestic commerce? Anyway, maps don't uncover themselves, and having map knowledge before others is still an advantage.

With RBMod, starting near someone who techs Alphabet and who finds you over the sea is very large advantage, which I believe is more asymmetric than BtS. Now you don't have to research Alphabet (which is a large and out of the way investment, quite unlike Writing), and you have a big gpt lead over your neighbour that the Alphabet player may not find for a while. Examples of where this created a big differential are probably spoilers.

If you consider from base BtS, you'll see that this is an improvement. In base BtS, the OB would be available even earlier, but it would only be available to the one party that did the exploring because map trading is delayed, so there is even greater disparity. The counterpoint there is that often people will refuse such OB and wars will be declared anyway because players are not willing to give others free commerce. So the explorer will just declare to pass through borders. I think that last time you raised this point this was the reply, and I don't see how it's any different now.

- Someone who researches alphabet can now sell OB for a significant amount of income, making technologically backward players actually suffer for it, while it's still in their best interest to buy it vs researching themselves. So this makes it an even larger snowball magnifier, and punishment for early conflict. It becomes like Hit Movies on steroids. (Some could argue this is a feature and not a problem.)

That's a somewhat skewed and illogical way to look at it. At no point should a player pay for OB if they aren't going to benefit from it, that's just a dumb decision if they do. What you're saying is that a player can benefit from a monopoly on a tech. That, IMO, is not a snowball magnifier, at least not in any way different to Currency, settling for early happiness resources or getting a religion. However, making Alphabet cheaper would make it more likely for Alphabet to not be a monopoly tech. Also, the concept of being tech backwards ignores that players can make gambits to other techs and benefit from the beakers generated in other ways.

Compared to Bronze working, which enables at least 4 crucial features, Writing is the same price or less, and enables one crucial feature and one nice one (libraries). I see it, like Dtay said, to be a core part of the game like slavery and granaries, maybe not "balanced" per se, since the techs are essential, but the techs are cheap and available very early in everyone's path. And early Bronze and Pottery, before a certain time, are indeed both examples of "one correct way to play".

Surprisingly enough OB is not an integral part of the game; AW games are not that much different to play out compared to AI diplo games. Comparing no OB to, say, playing the game with no slavery or no granaries would change the metagame somewhat more. I don't quite get this point either, because BW and Pottery are two examples of techs where they are not 1 right choices that have to be rushed to. They are in fact comparable to Writing because it's about when they are researched, not if. You don't rush BW first in every game, just as you don't rush to Pottery. Seven's little sandbox experiment showed that quite well, actually.

[WilliamLP]

In all cases I defer to you having much more experience and knowledge of the game, and I'll try to only point out places where you don't seem to be apprehending what I'm trying to say.

They also favor early sailing and scouting the coast and island chains and perhaps investment in roading to contacts. In the worst case, OB still has a lot of value for just the minimum 1 domestic commerce.

Those points are still necessary whether OB is available at Writing or not. I think your complaint here stems from your distaste for map trading? Though I don't understand your point about domestic commerce? Anyway, maps don't uncover themselves, and having map knowledge before others is still an advantage.

The point about domestic commerce is just me being confused and stupid, so please ignore. Whether it means my thinking is too muddled to have a point buried within is up to the reader to decide.

If you consider from base BtS, you'll see that this is an improvement. In base BtS, the OB would be available even earlier, but it would only be available to the one party that did the exploring because map trading is delayed, so there is even greater disparity. The counterpoint there is that often people will refuse such OB and wars will be declared anyway because players are not willing to give others free commerce. So the explorer will just declare to pass through borders. I think that last time you raised this point this was the reply, and I don't see how it's any different now.

I am repeating myself for sure, so I'll make an effort not to belabor this much more or go in circles.

It BtS, OB is available to everyone, and soon, with a tech that's as cheap or cheaper than Bronze, and that will be researched by everyone anyway modulo how much they prioritize it. On balance it gives everyone a big economic benefit from exploring. This is a big plus in my mind, not a balance problem. Are there really BtS games where you can't get foreign trade routes with anyone if you work a little for it? (Other than when you build GLH and you stand to gain more than your partner.)

- Someone who researches alphabet can now sell OB for a significant amount of income, making technologically backward players actually suffer for it, while it's still in their best interest to buy it vs researching themselves. So this makes it an even larger snowball magnifier, and punishment for early conflict. It becomes like Hit Movies on steroids. (Some could argue this is a feature and not a problem.)

That's a somewhat skewed and illogical way to look at it. At no point should a player pay for OB if they aren't going to benefit from it, that's just a dumb decision if they do. What you're saying is that a player can benefit from a monopoly on a tech. That, IMO, is not a snowball magnifier, at least not in any way different to Currency, settling for early happiness resources or getting a religion. However, making Alphabet cheaper would make it more likely for Alphabet to not be a monopoly tech. Also, the concept of being tech backwards ignores that players can make gambits to other techs and benefit from the beakers generated in other ways.

I don't think this totally addresses my point.

In RBMod you benefit from a monopoly on Alphabet but you may benefit even more from being one of the only contacts of someone else who has a monopoly on it, purely by chance! Not only do you get the benefit relative to someone who the contact hasn't found, and has no OB at all, but you're up the beakers for Alphabet on them too.

And the benefit can be that of intercontinental routes vs no foreign routes, where in BtS what an OB merchant would offer would typically be intercontinental routes vs routes over land with a neighbour, which is less of a disparate advantage to sell. So in RBMod an OB merchant has a lot more to offer than before so yes, this is the point about standing to gain more from a monopoly.

And yes, this does go with my distaste for nearly taking distant map scouting out of the game after first contacts: they are two things that devalue mid-game exploration compared to BtS, which is my favorite part of Civ. (It seems like you're trying to pin me down to saying that midgame exploration is worthless in RBMod, rather than simply devalued a lot?)

Surprisingly enough OB is not an integral part of the game; AW games are not that much different to play out compared to AI diplo games. Comparing no OB to, say, playing the game with no slavery or no granaries would change the metagame somewhat more. I don't quite get this point either, because BW and Pottery are two examples of techs where they are not 1 right choices that have to be rushed to. They are in fact comparable to Writing because it's about when they are researched, not if. You don't rush BW first in every game, just as you don't rush to Pottery. Seven's little sandbox experiment showed that quite well, actually.

It's not a binary issue of course. The point when it's simply always wrong to not have Pottery or BW yet is quite soon in the game. That point for Writing is still quite soon (even without OB there), though later. That point for Alphabet is far, far later, and it's much more expensive. Hence it's a greater disparity favouring those who don't need it by chance (because they started next to someone who chose it).

Also if OB is not an integral part of the game, it raises the question: why does it need to be rebalanced? Is there a specific game you have in mind where map asymmetry unbalanced things because of OB, and you think this would have been improved by having it at alphabet?

[Krill]

In all cases I defer to you having much more experience and knowledge of the game, and I'll try to only point out places where you don't seem to be apprehending what I'm trying to say.

They also favor early sailing and scouting the coast and island chains and perhaps investment in roading to contacts. In the worst case, OB still has a lot of value for just the minimum 1 domestic commerce.

Those points are still necessary whether OB is available at Writing or not. I think your complaint here stems from your distaste for map trading? Though I don't understand your point about domestic commerce? Anyway, maps don't uncover themselves, and having map knowledge before others is still an advantage.

The point about domestic commerce is just me being confused and stupid, so please ignore. Whether it means my thinking is too muddled to have a point buried within is up to the reader to decide.

OK.

If you consider from base BtS, you'll see that this is an improvement. In base BtS, the OB would be available even earlier, but it would only be available to the one party that did the exploring because map trading is delayed, so there is even greater disparity. The counterpoint there is that often people will refuse such OB and wars will be declared anyway because players are not willing to give others free commerce. So the explorer will just declare to pass through borders. I think that last time you raised this point this was the reply, and I don't see how it's any different now.

I am repeating myself for sure, so I'll make an effort not to belabor this much more or go in circles.

It BtS, OB is available to everyone, and soon, with a tech that's as cheap or cheaper than Bronze, and that will be researched by everyone anyway modulo how much they prioritize it. On balance it gives everyone a big economic benefit from exploring. This is a big plus in my mind, not a balance problem. Are there really BtS games where you can't get foreign trade routes with anyone if you work a little for it? (Other than when you build GLH and you stand to gain more than your partner.)

Well, first of all whilst the absolute cost of Writing is the same as or less BW, it does have higher total cost in prerequisites. That's a tangential point though. I agree that everyone will research it, but I think it's fair to state that Writing does not give everyone that economic benefit; examples from really old games like PB1 can show the maximum impact of that difference IMO (even if that game is not a good example of why a change is needed, it's still a good one to see just how large an impact OB can make). I think it's not entirely reasonable to state the question in terms of an absolute ability to get trade routes; you'll always be able to get trade routes by some point in the game.

The reason for moving them back is the time frame that those routes are available. So maybe it's better to phrase the question thus: "Are there games where early trade routes distort tech rate and settling rate of new cities?" As those two main effects of extra commerce: the ability to afford new cities, and research faster. I think the answer to this question is yes, but there are not simple examples to give. It's most apparent in island games.

- Someone who researches alphabet can now sell OB for a significant amount of income, making technologically backward players actually suffer for it, while it's still in their best interest to buy it vs researching themselves. So this makes it an even larger snowball magnifier, and punishment for early conflict. It becomes like Hit Movies on steroids. (Some could argue this is a feature and not a problem.)

That's a somewhat skewed and illogical way to look at it. At no point should a player pay for OB if they aren't going to benefit from it, that's just a dumb decision if they do. What you're saying is that a player can benefit from a monopoly on a tech. That, IMO, is not a snowball magnifier, at least not in any way different to Currency, settling for early happiness resources or getting a religion. However, making Alphabet cheaper would make it more likely for Alphabet to not be a monopoly tech. Also, the concept of being tech backwards ignores that players can make gambits to other techs and benefit from the beakers generated in other ways.

I don't think this totally addresses my point.

In RBMod you benefit from a monopoly on Alphabet but you may benefit even more from being one of the only contacts of someone else who has a monopoly on it, purely by chance! Not only do you get the benefit relative to someone who the contact hasn't found, and has no OB at all, but you're up the beakers for Alphabet on them too.

At that point, I'd question why a player with limited contacts decided to research Alphabet TBH and not something like Monarchy, Maths>Calendar, Aesthetics>Lit etc. I'm basically saying that I feel like if this situation occurs then the player with Alphabet has misplayed the tech strategy. However, lowering the cost of Alphabet (one of the potential changes would be to drop the cost of Alphabet from 120% of Maths or 80% of Maths) would decrease the "size" of this problem.

And the benefit can be that of intercontinental routes vs no foreign routes, where in BtS what an OB merchant would offer would typically be intercontinental routes vs routes over land with a neighbour, which is less of a disparate advantage to sell. So in RBMod an OB merchant has a lot more to offer than before so yes, this is the point about standing to gain more from a monopoly.

Aye, that's a fair point, but as dtay summarized it:

The Open Borders shift does have substantial game altering effects. By putting OB on a tech that isn't otherwise necessary, it makes the choice to acquire Open Borders capability a choice as opposed to an inevitably result. That creates the (rather interesting actually) game of hwo to handle your International Routes situation. Everyone HAS to get writing just because of where it leads + libraries, but Alphabet, open borders or no, is skippable until Printing Press.

I don't really have concern on this from the PoV of a monopoly, partly because this involves a choice on the part of the players (and meaningful choice is good); I "Trust the market" such that if only 1 person has Alphabet and is trying to extort large amounts of gold or resources form others, someone else will research Alphabet to gain some of those profits (plus making Alphabet cheaper than Maths would make it the quicker route to Currency).

And yes, this does go with my distaste for nearly taking distant map scouting out of the game after first contacts: they are two things that devalue mid-game exploration compared to BtS, which is my favorite part of Civ. (It seems like you're trying to pin me down to saying that midgame exploration is worthless in RBMod, rather than simply devalued a lot?)

Surprisingly enough OB is not an integral part of the game; AW games are not that much different to play out compared to AI diplo games. Comparing no OB to, say, playing the game with no slavery or no granaries would change the metagame somewhat more. I don't quite get this point either, because BW and Pottery are two examples of techs where they are not 1 right choices that have to be rushed to. They are in fact comparable to Writing because it's about when they are researched, not if. You don't rush BW first in every game, just as you don't rush to Pottery. Seven's little sandbox experiment showed that quite well, actually.

It's not a binary issue of course. The point when it's simply always wrong to not have Pottery or BW yet is quite soon in the game. That point for Writing is still quite soon (even without OB there), though later. That point for Alphabet is far, far later, and it's much more expensive. Hence it's a greater disparity favouring those who don't need it by chance (because they started next to someone who chose it).

I'll start at the last point first; so long as map trading is available prior to OB, there shouldn't be an advantage to starting next to a player that chooses to research Alphabet. This is because to get OB, the player without Alphabet can be forced to hand over maps; if they refuse then no OB. The counterpoint is of course that in this case, why should anyone research Alphabet if there are few trading partners and I feel the answer is that they shouldn't, and the whole problem disappears. With the maps though, the player with Alphabet knows where to scout to make new contacts and thus have more trading opportunities and the ability to extort gold from everyone, neighbours getting the first OB be damned. This is one of the reasons why I'm not really concerned about the timing of OB, provided that map trading is available prior to, or at the same time as, open borders.

Also if OB is not an integral part of the game, it raises the question: why does it need to be rebalanced? Is there a specific game you have in mind where map asymmetry unbalanced things because of OB, and you think this would have been improved by having it at alphabet?

War Elephants aren't an integral part of the game; still need balancing though. Same with several of the espionage missions.