[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

[MindyMcCready]

haven't you been in 3 wars since just about forever?

:LOL:

3 wars is 90% certain. It's 4 wars that'll be the problem.

I fully expect Bacchus to try to make a move on the copper city. It's extremely unwise for him to do so given our relative power, but I still expect it nevertheless. If we have to fight him for that spot anyway,....

What about Ichabod? What's the plan for locking him into 10T of peace? Right now he's looking at the Commodore city raze and might be thinking that we're a bit busy. Waiting a few turns and a few days for that impression to wear off would be a good idea.

On second thought, we could lose our iron. Post-Knights-whip or iron hook up for the 10T enforced peace deal.

Back to the island. As nice as that plains hill troll plant is, I think that we need the naval production of that copper+deer plant. Post Retep we'll have a bunch of seaside cities that'll want to work seafood if at all possible. That city might be crucial in helping to achieve that. Naval mobility in that region will also be an important consideration.

[WilliamLP]

3 wars is 90% certain. It's 4 wars that'll be the problem.

Yeah, we've been at war with 4 players, but fortunately never with actual fighting in more than one place at once, except for the time Retep sniped a city.

What about Ichabod? What's the plan for locking him into 10T of peace? Right now he's looking at the Commodore city raze and might be thinking that we're a bit busy. Waiting a few turns and a few days for that impression to wear off would be a good idea.

I have mixed feelings about the value of that war dec. It's kind of a signal that we're doing something in the next 10 turns that we'd rather he not interrupt. (Which is true!) So I can imagine if he's on the fence about attacking, seeing that we want peace might even sway him towards it?

I'm not sure though. For all Ichabod knows we could be powering up to make a run at him. (Though our obvious logical move is also the one we're planning - to attack Retep.) Maybe he'd like the forced peace and it would make him able to move more stuff toward Harry and Fintourist?

In the situations that are concerning, that he's actually able to mass the kind of force that it would take to take a city from us and hit in the next 10 turns, he's not going to take peace anyway. But if he keeps war, do we change anything? If he takes peace can we afford to move any defenders out of Boheme and unfortify, when they need to be back in 10 turns anyway?

On second thought, we could lose our iron. Post-Knights-whip or iron hook up for the 10T enforced peace deal.

I'm basically sure our route to Mackoti doesn't need to go though Ichabod, so I don't think that's a worry. We do have an iron to hook, but I haven't been worried about it since no city can actually work it.

Back to the island. As nice as that plains hill troll plant is, I think that we need the naval production of that copper+deer plant. Post Retep we'll have a bunch of seaside cities that'll want to work seafood if at all possible. That city might be crucial in helping to achieve that. Naval mobility in that region will also be an important consideration.

What I did do is switch Trovatore to a galley to whip, postponing its lighthouse. If we're going to settle again on the island, it's nice not to have to worry about the settler getting killed in a transport. And I guess I feel like there's much of a rush to get a city down than to fight a boat war. If we have to live without seafood for a while, that's even a possibility. We don't have that much.

[WilliamLP]

A relatively quiet turn. Commodore unloaded a chariot to kill our victorious but wounded G2 longbow, and deleted the chariot. Now we're back to playing defense on the island, with a settler fairly soon. And also there's a galleys vs carrack shuffle going on. What I have to watch out for there is not leaving open a stack where Comm can attack and then retreat onto the ocean where we can't strike back.

Retep plan:




I'm actually deciding to move forward the attack to declare on the turn we get engineering! So, 3 turns from now. The plan is the north stack moves SE-S-SW onto A2, and the south stack moves NW-SW-SW onto A1, together with nearly all our knights. A few knights will get left out.







Of the 9 knights in production, 6 can move to A1 in 3 turns. (Or 7, but I don't really want to double-whip Rigoletto next turn.) The remaining few can join in the turn after, or they could defend the homeland if Retep launches a counterattack. I'm not too worried about the counterattack, because of our culture, and spears on roads outrunning HAs with engineering.

So an estimate of what we invade with is 9 longbows, 8 Axe, 12 knights, 9 catapults, 3 spears, with a few more knights to follow. I'm hoping that can be decisive. The perfect scenario is if he can't move to defend Suit Up in time from 12 knights attacking immediately. It's why I want to leave that top stack to look like we're just being passive, so he doesn't move that north melee stack onto his road network in the next two turns.




Contrary to Mindy, I think I'd be quite happy if Bacchus joins in and takes Retep's copper city! The land we'd take from this (if successful, obviously), plus the spots for settlers opened up, would already be a lot to swallow economically that we'd have to develop. Having Suit Up be the main border city would make our empire fairly circular, which is a good thing. Plus not having to take that city means we don't have to have a lot of army far from Ichabod.

It's also worth noting we're 7 XP to a general, so any crazy ideas you can think of for what to do with him are appreciated. The default is just to merge with Turandot for the extra starting XP.

[WilliamLP]

We're doing a bit of shuffling with boats. Commodore actually attacked a galley pair with his carrack, and sunk one at 75%. That was pretty risky of him! The follow-up was at 88%.




Another unpromoted Carrack is on the way. However we will have 3 galleys in the area, one out of Trovatore, and one whipped out of Magic Flute. Our Trireme also made it into Trovatore, will be full health in 3 turns. And our clam net is intact. Commodore will be able to control the seas here eventually if he really wants to, but I'm going to make him invest for it.

Azza is getting torn apart by Lewwyn rather quickly. I wish Scooter were taking advantage of this to attack Commodore!




We just culturally captured the western silver tile. Horsetown has 4 archers and 2 spears in it.

We attack next turn! Almost everything here will move in from two directions. I'm doing it this way so that we have a chance to not spook Retep yet this turn.

A2 will have 4 Longbow, 2 Cats, 2 Spear, 3 Axe.
A1 will have 5 Longbow, 7 Cats, 1 Spear, 8 Axe, 10 knights

The 10 knights can all attack Suit Up the turn after. We'll see if he can react with enough to make this impossible. If so, everything will consolidate on the "Merge" tile.

I think the ancient battleground of 3000 years ago looks a little different now.




You can see our dip from the Commodore raze. Ichabod is still going straight up. We'll have a big spike shown next turn.






Lurker question: Retep gets one more move this turn, and I want to make sure I get in and attack Retep next turn before he can move again before us in peace. Is it ok to do this, log in immediately after the turn roll and declare war to claim the first half of the turn, if I don't move any units that affect Commodore? I wouldn't actually play the full turn until after Commodore.

[Ceiliazul]

zombie you want a three way time split? that kind of sucks for everybody. i think you can do it, and post what you did in the IT thread. ...but ill defer to any more pitboss-oriented vets who chime in

[WilliamLP]

The alternative is to let Retep get two moves right now before we play, and that's the difference between being able to get his melee stack into his capital in time to defend against our knights. I've been playing before Retep for basically the last 100 turns, as well. He likes to play near the last of the order and is kind of a late clock camper.

Waiting until after he plays, when we've had this order forever, would certainly clue him in.

[WilliamLP]

I fully expect Bacchus to try to make a move on the copper city. It's extremely unwise for him to do so given our relative power, but I still expect it nevertheless. If we have to fight him for that spot anyway,....

I think I'd like this, and would be happy to let him have that city in the short term at least.

It would mean Retep would be totally dead (all assuming this attack works). This has advantages for happiness, culture, and any units Bacchus kills, we don't have to kill ourselves. It would mean a nice circular more defensible empire. Retep's copper city is pretty far out there and would need to be defended against Bacchus, as well as Scooter and Commodore's potential threats.

As far as shape goes, it doesn't feel like it fits to me. E.g. Col of Conscience would be a much better attack target for us.

There will be a lot of work consolidating what we have, just given Retep's upper 3 cities, and filling in new sites, and building up economy and infrastructure, to support the larger empire.

So I'm feeling like Bacchus would actually be doing us a favor conquering that city.

[MindyMcCready]

Contrary to Mindy, I think I'd be quite happy if Bacchus joins in and takes Retep's copper city! The land we'd take from this (if successful, obviously), plus the spots for settlers opened up, would already be a lot to swallow economically that we'd have to develop. Having Suit Up be the main border city would make our empire fairly circular, which is a good thing. Plus not having to take that city means we don't have to have a lot of army far from Ichabod.

Are you saying that you're ok with Bacchus keeping that city? That's a heck of a lot of military that you've built for the sake of capturing 2 cities and undisputed land for 3 more - 2 of which are going to be pure fishing villages and very vulnerable to either Commodore or Plako or Bacchus if he's sitting there in the copper city.

That is an extremetly strong city and a naval one at that. We're in a fight with Master Commodore who has a naval UU and is unlikely to go away very soon. Bacchus is also creative and going to push on our borders.

With our current power difference, I prefer other ways of getting a round border that don't involve giving away cities to Bacchus.

Given that you are adverse to attacking established cities we're going to develop that land and run out of new land way sooner than we'll be conquoring the next backward civ.

[MindyMcCready]

I think I'd like this, and would be happy to let him have that city in the short term at least.

Short-term? Not buying it. You've been very reluctant to attack Retep despite what I consider to be certainty in the outcome of the fight. We're as close to power parity as we're likely to be against Ichabod for the rest of the game and our power advantage over Bacchus is solid.

This is as good of a time to win that city as we're likely to ever have for the rest of the game.

Really, what are the odds that we'll be conquoring that city before the end of the game given your preference is to avoid attacking mature cities?

It would mean Retep would be totally dead (all assuming this attack works). This has advantages for happiness, culture, and any units Bacchus kills, we don't have to kill ourselves.

If you angled this in a 'let Bacchus try and we'll clean up the survivors' way, then I might be inclined but then that comes with the risk of not achieving those advantages.

It would mean a nice circular more defensible empire. Retep's copper city is pretty far out there and would need to be defended against Bacchus, as well as Scooter and Commodore's potential threats.

Getting that naval production city sitting on a hill is a net positive in defending against Commodore. Scooter? I've paid zero attention to the global map so far. If he's coming from the SW, then I'd rather have that city than not have it. Bacchus is behind us in every measure last I checked. That city is low hanging fruit and a springboard to any other island interests that we might have.

As far as shape goes, it doesn't feel like it fits to me. E.g. Col of Conscience would be a much better attack target for us.

Well sure the shape isn't great, but the city is and Bacchus is weaker than us. Circular is not absolutely necessary against a weaker opponent.

Col of Conscience we would be difficult to keep due to culture from capital - we'd get catted from the fog. Either that city or Forever machine should be razed if taken. The advantage of Forever machine is that Bacchus is then forced to defend 3 cities one of which is his capital. Col of Conscience would probably be abandoned if we did a three-way threat.

The other advantage of razing Forever machine is that you'd then plant a city for the corn + flood plains.

There will be a lot of work consolidating what we have, just given Retep's upper 3 cities, and filling in new sites, and building up economy and infrastructure, to support the larger empire.

We need cities and naval power, and we can get COL easily and we get cheap markets and cheap grocers and cheap workers and we already have the military.

So I'm feeling like Bacchus would actually be doing us a favor conquering that city.

I'm not feeling the same way. :LOL:

I still think that we strip defenses at Suit up and see if Retep will retreat to Copper city. That's his best play in my mind given flatland cities facing Knights and a defenseless capital.

[WilliamLP]

Are you saying that you're ok with Bacchus keeping that city? That's a heck of a lot of military that you've built for the sake of capturing 2 cities and undisputed land for 3 more - 2 of which are going to be pure fishing villages and very vulnerable to either Commodore or Plako or Bacchus if he's sitting there in the copper city.

Fortunately Plako is a long way away still, having the rest of Dhal to go through (who is whipping a frenzy) and then all of Bacchus.




The army we've got isn't excessive at all, it's close to the minimum for survival vs Ichabod.

I see 6 cities to add here. Or 5 if we concede that the "C" sites aren't defensible against Scooter. He has to be getting close to Astro. Then there's an iron city to settle to our east, and also two mediocre cities to fill in the mainland (one on the north coast, one in the hill zone that becomes viable with CS.) And also the additional island troll city. That is a lot of growth!

Expanding much more before courthouses doesn't make sense to me. It puts us further behind in tech, which means getting killed earlier. Retep's copper city is nice for production but given distance and number of cities maintenance it will be an extreme bear for commerce.

The empire itself feels much more defensible to me without that copper city. It means units in Barbiere can cover a large part of the empire in 2 moves.

We're only 4 spots away now from being the backward civ. Azza is on a death clock, he'll be eliminated before 20 turns pass I think. Dhal is getting eaten by Plako. Retep's future is... uncertain. The only other person behind us is Bacchus, and certainly I wouldn't be averse to attacking him later, maybe around the time of Rifling if we're still alive.

I guess that's the bottom line. What helps us get to rifling the fastest? I'm pretty sure the copper city hinders that goal.

For wars, yes, my feeling is they need to fast, decisive, and victory needs to be certain in order to commit. In general that means established cities are going to be much less of a good idea to attack than grabbing neutral lands or new cities.