[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

[Gavagai]

I wonder if he's getting advice from Gavagai or something?

No, he isn't. I stopped dedlurking him soon after he lost his second city to Retep, this game was too interesting to resist temptation. He is actually a pretty good player, though his diplo (even in an AI-diplo game) is shit.

[WilliamLP]

He seems to believe, basically, there is no metagame: you play every game (or even every turn) for maximum local reward because that's what everyone else should rationally do too. Maybe that's an oversimplification of his point of view.

How he handles this new border is interesting, and I'd consider it more carefully in a game where I was more competitive. In my wildest dreams, he sees that: 1. I offered fish for fish which is just a signal but it's still a signal and maybe he knows I'm all about trickery but not about deceit. 2. I could have sniped his roading worker but chose not to for another signal. 3. If he attacks it hurts me a lot but doesn't offer any progress for him in the game in the long run and means he gets eaten by Plako rather quickly. 4. Thus, we'd both benefit a lot from a demilitarized border.

I wouldn't bet on this happening. It's kind of a personality test for him for people who play with him in future games to scout, perhaps.

Also, maybe he still feels spite for early turns.

[Gavagai]

you play every game (or even every turn) for maximum local reward because that's what everyone else should rationally do too.

In my experience this attitude is common for people with mostly ladder background.

[MindyMcCready]

He seems to believe, basically, there is no metagame: you play every game (or even every turn) for maximum local reward because that's what everyone else should rationally do too. Maybe that's an oversimplification of his point of view.

How he handles this new border is interesting, and I'd consider it more carefully in a game where I was more competitive. In my wildest dreams, he sees that:
1. I offered fish for fish which is just a signal but it's still a signal and maybe he knows I'm all about trickery but not about deceit.
2. I could have sniped his roading worker but chose not to for another signal.
3. If he attacks it hurts me a lot but doesn't offer any progress for him in the game in the long run and means he gets eaten by Plako rather quickly.
4. Thus, we'd both benefit a lot from a demilitarized border.

I wouldn't bet on this happening. It's kind of a personality test for him for people who play with him in future games to scout, perhaps.

Also, maybe he still feels spite for early turns.

I think that we already had the results of his personality test some time ago.
-He takes a shot at us early for no gain.
-He pokes around looking to take another shot.
-He plants outside of his reasonable border in a position that can threaten multiple cities. We razed that one.

Now he once again intends to plant in a position that can threaten multiple cities. So I'd guess that every peace signal that you send him is interpreted as "WLP wants peace so I can get away with more aggression. I can make that (extremely) aggressive plant and hit him hard when he next fights Ichabod/Commodore".

Of course, we had a chance to take that exact site and fill it with hilled LBs while his army was down south,....

[Hashoosh]

I'm curious about how strong you've found SPI to be in RBmod?

I don't know the civics well enough in the mod to know what to do with it

[WilliamLP]

Hashoosh: TBH I don't think I'm really a good enough player to tell you.

But, I feel like the civic changes make a huge difference and are an indirect buff to the trait. Unlike RBMod, Serfdom is really, really nice. Workers get +75% work rate which is huge in some instances, especially watermills (take 5 turns instead of 8) and farms (3 turns instead of 5). Also roading deserts and floodplains in 2 turns is nice, not to mention chopping in 2! Unlike BtS, early watermills are fantastic tiles in RBMod: a river plains is 1/3/1 or 1/4/1 with Serfdom. We've spent a lot of time in that civic when I think few others could afford to. And combined with Exp for cheaper workers we get more worker turns for our buck than anyone in the midgame (maybe including Pacal of India).

I think we got a lot out of the free switch to Vassalage too, but some of that was delaying CS for faster knights, so losing Bureau wasn't an opportunity cost. Vassalage was actually a decent economic civic here because it gives more free military support.

Going to Caste for border pops isn't something we've used, mostly because we delayed CoL so long.

The peak of SPI is supposedly later in the game I think. When we can cycle the empire between wartime production (with up to +4 exp per unit) and peacetime in a way that other civs can't.

I also feel like it would be more powerful on top of the world's tech curve, rather than permanently playing for catch-up and survival like we've been doing. Because then you could afford to spend more time with pure economy and infrastructure and you'd have access to the better civics earlier, including Free Market and the Liberalism stuff.

[WilliamLP]

I think that we already had the results of his personality test some time ago.
-He takes a shot at us early for no gain.
-He pokes around looking to take another shot.
-He plants outside of his reasonable border in a position that can threaten multiple cities. We razed that one.

Yeah, but... don't you believe in redemption? Fool me four times and shame on me I guess...

I'm not sure if you included razing Cherokee in one of those. That move was just way outside of his zone and all he got was a few gold pieces and lost a few chariots to us in doing so.

The only one I might argue about was I'm not sure that Stranger was outside his reasonable border when he planted it. What made it so was Retep's sudden (and kind of baffling) change to giving us peace and turning the other way. Assuming Retep was going to keep harassing us forever seemed pretty reasonable.

Now he once again intends to plant in a position that can threaten multiple cities. So I'd guess that every peace signal that you send him is interpreted as "WLP wants peace so I can get away with more aggression. I can make that (extremely) aggressive plant and hit him hard when he next fights Ichabod/Commodore".

To be fair I'm not exactly a saint and would like to hit him when he next fights Plako, as well.

Of course, we had a chance to take that exact site and fill it with hilled LBs while his army was down south,....

Conceded! That would have been a really nice move in retrospect. I was too excited to be getting the chance to finish Retep that I wasn't thinking about the details new border at all. Mea culpa there. It would have been a very aggressive settlement (not able to take its first ring for a very long time) but the position would be better than now.

[Ceiliazul]

I also feel like it would be more powerful on top of the world's tech curve, rather than permanently playing for catch-up and survival like we've been doing. Because then you could afford to spend more time with pure economy and infrastructure and you'd have access to the better civics earlier, including Free Market and the Liberalism stuff.

i'm not sure thats true, Will. If you want to get out of a hole, you gotta take chances. going 5t without slavery, etc. is a risk you may have to take if you want to change your stars. the "good stuff early" argument is true, but the idea thaty you cant swap civic cuz you're behind is only going to keep you behind.

[WilliamLP]

Expanding on that point:




The red dot for us might never take the "X" tiles. They are gaining Bacchus' culture at 10 plus the culture output of Forever Machine. In order to gain ground, the city would have to pop borders, and also produce more base culture then FM, and only then would it start to catch up. Since he's Creative, that isn't realistic. The "Y" tiles it could get, if FM isn't producing more than 10 culture a turn, but it would take a while. So the city wouldn't actually claim any useful new tiles for us and would be a drain on the economy. It would also risk riots (wounding the units inside) and flipping since Bacchus would out-culture the city tile.

Its sole purpose would be a costly settlement-blocking fort. But, even as such, I concede that it would have been a good idea.

[WilliamLP]

i'm not sure thats true, Will. If you want to get out of a hole, you gotta take chances. going 5t without slavery, etc. is a risk you may have to take if you want to change your stars.

Fair enough! Even behind, the fact that we can be in Serfdom and get back to Slavery on any given turn is really a big deal.