[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

[WilliamLP]

You do realize that Caravels cannot pillage nets?

Oh damn! Thanks, no I didn't know.

[MindyMcCready]

I decided to adopt Mindy's preferred style of dealing with Commodore:

Begging for mercy...

Hey! Let's be fair here. My preferred way to deal with Master Commodore was to not bother trading two dozen units over some hopeless 3 city island and instead spend those units on backwards PITA Retep that opens up 8 city sites.

Once the Retep kill was accomplished and our borders secured, I would have had no problem taking a stab at that island and we would have had the naval basis to successfully challenge him instead of just troll him.

To push that confrontation while we had 1-2 undeveloped naval cities was a big mistake in my mind. Also, with a dedicated military push post-Retep we could have swept that island coming from our north and/or hiding in our lakes. We could have had a huge naval force sitting the LaTraviata lake as a launching point that never, ever would have been seen.

Instead you played Master Commodore's game of the endless grind. And while you did very well at it, upstaging the Master himself, it was ultimately a losing proposition and an extremely costly one for us since it delayed Retep's demise so much, cost us economically, and utlimately spread out our military for close to the entire game. We completely squandared our 'in-the-corner' advantage in my mind. It's not luck that's now allowing Ichabod to focus his entire military in our direction.

We've already poked the hornet's next; we've already taken the hit economically and our fortified CG2 LBs have 41% odds against even rifles (of which he won't be able to produce in such great numbers given the 2-pop draft and 110H cost).

I think that you really missed the spirit of how I wanted to deal with Master Commodore.

[WilliamLP]

it was ultimately a losing proposition

Everything has been ultimately a losing proposition, for the last 120 turns. Hoping Commodore doesn't take easy land on our west coast wasn't any more of a positive outcome play a few turns ago than it is now.

Once the Retep kill was accomplished and our borders secured,

Ironically killing Retep has made our borders dramatically less secure. He was a trap zone with absolutely no threat to attack, now we've got cities that will be worthless for 20+ turns and a guy with more modern tech there.

[MindyMcCready]

Fair enough, but you don't have to invest an hour per turn in the hopeless endgame unless you're a compulsive player (like me). For all the ill said about Kuro's game in PB11, he got the hopeless endgame right. Log in, whip everything, log out.

I agree with this William. There isn't many goals left for the game other than winning a battle or two and making life difficult for the opponents.

If you can survive this little deja vu with Ichabod I suspect that you'll easily repluse an unprepared Bacchus if he makes a move. And if Master Commodore doesn't accept peace,...41% odds for each 50H LB versus 58% odds for each 110H Rifle.

I understand if your reporting drops off, of course. Let me know if you're at that point because the global game does seem interesting. Although I will say that war with Ichabod (and especially Bacchus ) is equally interesting.

[MindyMcCready]

it was ultimately a losing proposition

Everything has been ultimately a losing proposition, for the last 120 turns. Hoping Commodore doesn't take easy land on our west coast wasn't any more of a positive outcome play a few turns ago than it is now.

Once the Retep kill was accomplished and our borders secured,

Ironically killing Retep has made our borders dramatically less secure. He was a trap zone with absolutely no threat to attack, now we've got cities that will be worthless for 20+ turns and a guy with more modern tech there.

Well, I could argue that 'losing proposition' is true of everyone in every PB except for the winner. :LOL: Reminds me a bit of Master Krill's: 'everyone's in conflict from T0'. You seem to have gotten the spirit of the first one. :LOL: The latter,...seems like a bitter pill for you to swallow.

Well it's certainly true that a confrontation with Bacchus is now more likely especially with his new 'hit-us-in-one-turn' city plant. And that's why peace with Master Commodore was important way back then: a chance to finish off Retep in a timely manner and a chance to get a strong border with Bacchus and a chance to build up naval cities.

Listen, you chose to have fun on the island. In my mind, it wasn't the way to win the game but you seemed to have fun with it. So what's changed? As I've said before, winning's over-rated in my mind.

Yes, one day Master Commodore will hit the costal cities. Would he have done that 1T before Rifles? Absolutely not. Unless you've totally, completely 'crapped in his sandbox' he's not going to attempt a mainland invasion due to the horrible odds of pulling it off successfully. So we had a chance at many, many turns of peace that would have been to our benefit. And you still have time against even that eventuality due to the cost of Rifles, the defensive power of LBs on hills and/or the ability of even drafted maces to survive a naval assault. Once frigates are roaming around to reduce the culture,...then you're done if you don't have protective muskets.

Fighting it out with Master Commodore should only be done if/when you have no chance (or no desire) to win the game. We're at that point anyway, so let him have it! (You could also fight it out over something extremely valuable, of course, but it had better be worth it).

Anyway,...I'm patiently waiting for you to retract that statement about 'begging for mercy'. I tried to steer you clear of a conflit that would never, ever return a profit; would endlessly spread out our army and cost us hammers; and would put us behind relative to our real rivals of Bacchus and Ichabod. I understand why you might have taken that as fearful, but it was a calculation in your interest.

[WilliamLP]

Anyway,...I'm patiently waiting for you to retract that statement about 'begging for mercy'. I tried to steer you clear of a conflit that would never, ever return a profit; would endlessly spread out our army and cost us hammers; and would put us behind relative to our real rivals of Bacchus and Ichabod. I understand why you might have taken that as fearful, but it was a calculation in your interest.

I think you reacted very differently because it was Commodore on the controls, and not some other player. Say Bacchus were running Commodore's exact empire, and also made a move settling an island toward us (and much closer and easier to build up for us) that would get him no economic gain, that he wasn't going to be able to defend if we pushed him for it. My judgement is that your advice would have been different and that you're wanting play the opponent (while being a little star-struck) rather than the situation.

Playing the opponent is part of the game, sure. Reputation matters. So I do think you were advocating the surrender of the island as a play for a more interesting game, which isn't the same as "begging for mercy". Still there is some element of the second in the first. (And there is an element of it in the offer I made now!)

Because reputation matters, I'm happy to have demonstrated that if you grab an asymmetrical plot of land toward me, that's an act of aggression and I'm going to prioritize punishing it, and I'm going to try and use all the tools available in the game that I know about. I guess there's no better time to establish reputation than in a losing game, but still with temporarily strong position.

Fighting it out with Master Commodore should only be done if/when you have no chance (or no desire) to win the game.

Yeah, again, in a game with this many talented players, and some with huge defensible swaths of land to grow into, that die was cast as soon as we had to postpone our second settler and library for a crapload of axes.

I understand if your reporting drops off, of course. Let me know if you're at that point because the global game does seem interesting. Although I will say that war with Ichabod (and especially Bacchus hammer) is equally interesting.

It's still somewhat interesting, there are still tactical shots and some chances for Ichabod to screw up. It's just a slope getting steeper and steeper though, and every move we make to survive in the now reduces relative position later, so it's not a tug-of-war that's very fun.

So I'll keep reporting, but I have to say that in this game I'm done giving a lot of careful to attention to long term planning and other discussions like we've been doing. And thanks, it's been great fun and I've learned a lot about the game for sure! If you want to globally lurk I take no offense to that, since I've lost the energy to play this like a team game and debate minutia that matter less and less as we fall further behind.

E.g. I kind of want to run for the Grenadier / Cannon path just because I'm curious how it would work out, not that I particularly think it will go well. The draft path I understand a lot more and is probably better.

[MindyMcCready]

I think you reacted very differently because it was Commodore on the controls, and not some other player.

Absolutely. I knew that Master Commodore would 100% throw his game to take that island. If anything, I'm surprised that he hasn't hit us harder,....

Bacchus, after we razed his city, did not go into 100% spite mode. Neither did Ichabod. They over-extended, and we took the appropriate action. They also took the rational action of treating the losses as sunk costs and backed off us post city raze. Master Commodore does not operate that way.

Say Bacchus were running Commodore's exact empire, and also made a move settling an island toward us,...

:LOL: That's not fair making it Bacchus! Of course I would want to kill him. Anybody else it's debatable.

My judgement is that your advice would have been different and that you're wanting play the opponent (while being a little star-struck) rather than the situation.

FWIW I don't consider myself star-struck despite having awarded 'the Title'. And yes, I 100% 'played the opponent' which I think is wise when dealing with Master Commodore or anyone really.

Now if it wasn't Master Commodore,...it's still debatable whether pushing into backwards Retep for 8 cities or onto the island for 3 cities would have been the better move. Alot would have depended on Ichabod of course. But, I consider the following safe to say:
-If Retep had continued on his spite mode towards us, and forcing us to build military anyway and garrison along a long border, then we probably should have kept putting the hammer to him before seeking new conflict over that island. Retep's sudden conflit with Bacchus threw a wrench into that analysis of course.

Because reputation matters, I'm happy to have demonstrated that if you grab an asymmetrical plot of land toward me, that's an act of aggression and I'm going to prioritize punishing it, and I'm going to try and use all the tools available in the game that I know about. I guess there's no better time to establish reputation than in a losing game, but still with temporarily strong position.

Well I think that other players will take notice. I'm not so sure Master Commodore will. But still, to have taken an island off of Master Commodore,...you're practically a rabid dog in my opinion. :LOL:

So I'll keep reporting, but I have to say that in this game I'm done giving a lot of careful to attention to long term planning and other discussions like we've been doing. And thanks, it's been great fun and I've learned a lot about the game for sure! If you want to globally lurk I take no offense to that, since I've lost the energy to play this like a team game and debate minutia that matter less and less as we fall further behind.

E.g. I kind of want to run for the Grenadier / Cannon path just because I'm curious how it would work out, not that I particularly think it will go well. The draft path I understand a lot more and is probably better.

Yes, I sensed as much. I was getting the feeling that me disagreeing with you (somewhat routinely :LOL was a bit like the straw breaking the camel's back. The team game takes a lot of effort no doubt.

I'm not 100% sure that I'll jettison right away so you might still get some pointy comments. :LOL: Certainly, I've learned a ton from my lurking experience as well.

[WilliamLP]

Absolutely. I knew that Master Commodore would 100% throw his game to take that island. If anything, I'm surprised that he hasn't hit us harder,....

Would you have predicted that him and Scooter could have an absolutely peaceful border for the entire game?

Yes, he hasn't thrown that much. He also still could be quite in this game if Scooter and Mackoti start investing a lot into a war that goes nowhere and he can expand to the continent to his east. (Heh.) He's one of the few players, along with Plako and Ichabod, who have no overland threats to worry about.

RBMod does have some additional elastic band effect to help tech laggers get back on pace, with a slowed pace and multiplying known tech bonus. (Writing, then Paper, then Steam, Sci Meth, Electricity: you get +125% to your base research if you have all those and the rest of the world knows the tech.)

Master Commodore does not operate that way.

Oh I don't know, I think I've seen more rationality out of him lately than in the PB5 days.

Yes, I sensed as much. I was getting the feeling that me disagreeing with you (somewhat routinely :LOL was a bit like the straw breaking the camel's back. The team game takes a lot of effort no doubt.

Yeah, it's harder to get into it when the duct tape and glue holding the lands together starts to unstick, and it's a matter of what breaks the latest. I took a risk there, that Ichabod would hold off on a followup attack for a while, but that didn't work. I think there was even a certain calculation where leaving Retep alive was still the right thing to do, for maximum security.

Who knows though, maybe Ichabod will get really cocky or something and leave another stack open.

[WilliamLP]

Also, now that I know Caravels can't pillage nets (I was wonder why Commodore left ours alone!) Optics is an absolutely horrible waste of beakers for us. Oh well...

I still think I want to get an explorer or two on one and start checking out the action on the other continents, lol.

[WilliamLP]

Commodore took the one-sided peace deal, which is no shock. He offered open borders which I took, since it helps us ferry units back home. I suspect I could have found the way for the teleport mechanics to get the units off the island immediately. I think that would have happened to units 1E of Magic Flute, since the teleport would favour going towards our cities to the SE. (Screenshot from a couple turns back for reference:

) The complete and precise teleportation rules are arcane and complex, see some posts from RefSteel in my PB11 thread that I don't really understand... One day maybe I'll go to the source code for it.

But anyway, galleys are also out of position (because I didn't think it through) so units will be a couple turns delayed getting back to the mainland.




Fintourist's scout is reporting the action.

Ichabod's razing units retreated, and he didn't advance in the east yet. This is good for him because he doesn't have enough in his eastern stack to avoid getting mauled by a cat first strike and knights if he moves SE of Don G.

The power graph isn't interesting because we're not getting Ichabod's line back. The trouble is that he can play this as a zero-sum game and as long as we both take some losses and it isn't completely lopsided it's a big win for him. This, because he has no plausible threats to his mainland at all.

Gunpowder is due in 4, which would be 1 if not for my silly plan for optics.

By the far the most important task for us right now is getting an explorer on a caravel over to the eastern continent. (Too bad scouts go obsolete and we don't have one.)