[SPOILERS] Team EggHeads: DMOC and TeddyKGB (Now Lurker-Friendly!)

[DMOC]

Turn 149 - 780 AD

This post will feature a detailed plan in case anyone can take over for me in the next few days. I can play turn 150 but that is probably it until February 23. I have signs to indicate the important worker actions, but at this point many of our workers will just be roading.

As for city micro: hopefully things will be straightfoward. We have four cities growing next turn so some tile rearrangement may be necessary, but as long as the person who is subbing is reasonably skilled at this, it shouldn't be a problem. For the cities growing next turn: Stanford can put its citizen on its free mine, MIT can put its citizen on a free mine, Cornell can put it on a 3F farm (and also give a farm to Michigan's new citizen).

Research is at 100% to finish Feudalism and then we'll be at 0% for three turns, then back to 100% after that to finish Guilds. Our tech path will be Guilds -> Alphabet. After that, I'm debating between Drama and Paper. Our Golden Age will start on turn 154, at which time we'll certainly revolt to Vassalage, and maybe Caste System.

The civilization as a whole:

The power graph indicates that Bisons is slowly building military. By the way, is that suttree or B4ndit whose power is increasing substantially? I can't tell.

Carnegie Mellon. Colosseum -> Bararcks -> Stable -> Cataphracts (we should have it by then). The Golden Age will start on t154, and I think we should keep running some Great People to take advantage of the +100% GPP modifier.

I will avoid whipping MIT. It's growing and will put its remaining citizens on mines.

Stanford isn't a great production city. It'll just slow-produce HA/Cataphracts, maybe whipping once or twice.

Berkeley. It'll grow to size 11 and then probably focus on production. I would probably not whip the forge to completion. Maybe once we can put the overflow into Cataphracts.

Cornell builds a settler (4 turns) next turn, then HA/Cataphracts after that.

Illinois has a 2-pop HA whip saved and is building a temple to pass the time (and temple will give some badly needed extra hammers to this city).

Washington will build a temple next turn (for happiness and hammers) then a stable, then Cataphracts. We have a worker being ferried over to workshop that jungle tile.

Princeton's just slowly building the courthouse -- it'll need the corn to regrow if otherwise. I guess Courthouse -> HA/Cataphracts works.

UT Austin: barracks, then HA/Cataphracts.

Caltech will build a HA next turn, but save it for a 2-pop whip.

GA Tech finishes forge, finishes temple (culture/happiness) then barracks, then military.

Wisconsin has a HA whip saved, and is building a temple while growing.

UMich will work HA for another turn, then switch to a colosseum since we can save the HA for a whip.

Los Angeles is just growing. We'll get cottages up on those remaining grasslands soon.

San Diego is just growing but may get some Cataphract whips later.

Maryland is just growing for now. At size three, it will work the silver.

To top it all off, here's what we're building all in one screen.

Last things: tech + demos. Bisons will get Education next turn, and B4ndit is researching Gunpowder. Note that Bisons is putting espionage points on us. Maybe we should counter?

[DMOC]

Turn 150 - 800 AD

Before playing the turn I got this message from Bisons.

Hi

ok let's go try to explain

i'm in position in PNB ( 2nd PNB out of GA i've 85% of sutree PNB ) and i'm ready to start my 1st GA. ( next turn ) very boost of gold and production i'm ready to be the very powerfull PNB of this game. i will be on rifle very fast to attack south. all the south i think, because i will have a very advance in tech.
since i have an ally, i can be more efficient than sutree. tech more fast, have more army because my ally support me and in return have help of me with my army, give him some advice, and protect together.

i can make the same with you. i will have rifle cav very fast and help you attak someone after my proper attak ( somebody, i dont really care ) by giving you unit for example. or upgrade your's ( i dont see that strategie who will be very powerfull U_U )
you can also support me and have your part. because i'm ready to tech more fast than 95% of the other's. and i really ready to honor my ally.


in this game, war will be very short. if a war is during, that will be = to lose the game. that why i dont want you attack me, because i'm sure it will not be a short war for you. and sutree will be the only winner of this.


i'm in position to tech pikeman when i want and upgrade my army very fast,( i can make 500gold per turn at 0 % tech ) in the same time i will tech powder, so you will have a lot of problem against me in war. i have already see a game in that your UU will be complety out with a good composition or army. BUT, you can choice my bord,

if you dont want a short extend, we can speak about a more long if you are afraid i come after you with more powerfull unit.
it depend how you want our relation evolved. and wicth type of cooperation you want to discuss.

to finish, i think i will beat sutree with diplomacie or spacial ship.

to be honest, if you dont attak me and sign a nap, i think i will be a largest leader than sutree. because i will dont lose time on futile war. and i think we can have an agreement for the future.
but i think your neighbor ( and me ) are already ready for your UU, and i can be the mean to you to overtech. ( not another , that is just sutree who can beat me in tech actually )

if you want i explain more just ask.

Bisons

From reading this, I can tell that he has no idea who's really in the lead this game. It's just the same with Asterix. Neither of them can or could recognize the fact that suttree and Oxy have already locked up this game. Bison's claim that he'll be able to take over southern land and win space race or diplo (WTF?) is absolutely laughable and ridiculous. I mean, doesn't this guy read the power and tech screen? He can talk all he wants about starting Golden Ages to get rifling and attack others, but SutOxy are already in a Golden Age, will get riflemen much sooner, and will already be attacking either Arki (likely) or classical_hero (less likely) before Bisons can gear up for war. Furthermore, his message doesn't take into account our intentions. Do we just want to let him walk to a win?

Also, if someone claims he's going to win space race, I'll trust him when he actually shows that he's capable of doing it. (His cities aren't growing any more, he has never changed to Bureaucracy (?) or Representation (really?), and so on.) To top it all off, he's playing his turns in 20 minutes, while SutOxy are combining for over 3 hours a turn.

Bisons is putting more stuff by our border. In fact, I kind of hope he does something like upgrade units instead of researching. I don't believe that he can generate 500 gpt without gold per turn gifts.

I am definitely never playing full diplo games again.

[NobleHelium]

I am definitely never playing full diplo games again.

I remember you singing a very different tune just a month or two ago.

[DMOC]

I am definitely never playing full diplo games again.

I remember you singing a very different tune just a month or two ago.

You ruined my streak of back-to-back posts corresponding to back-to-back turn reports.

But seriously, when did I ever say that? I think I proposed something along the lines of a real-life diplomacy games, where we all play Civ but the richest player on Realms Beyond pays for plane tickets so that everyone can convene in a RB-like United Nations where we hammer out the gamelong NAPs.

As far as the game goes right now, Bisons is getting very suspicious of me, as you can tell. I have no idea why he thinks he can win diplo or space, and furthermore, that we'd actually let him. Remember, the last thing I want to do in a Civ game is let my neighbor win the game. Fortunately, I'm confident that suttree is too far ahead for him to catch up. But I wonder why suttree never went for Liberalism. Or maybe he still is, with that Great Scientist he just got.

I'm thinking of offering Bisons some sort of "out" ... so perhaps 3000 gold in exchange for peace? If Bisons really thinks he can win the game, then guaranteed peace with me for the rest of the game is the best way to do that. What does everyone think about this? If his claim that he can generate 500 gpt is true, then that's six turns of 0% research for him. If we do go to war, I'm going to need to revise some of my builds to include some maces and catapults. We'll probably need to research Engineering as well.

I will return to Civ in roughly 24 hours so hopefully I can play by then.

[NobleHelium]

Well I don't remember exactly, but I made a comment about playing Civ without diplomacy being exactly the point and you looked at me like I was crazy or something.

[DMOC]

Whiteeye/Raptorous, if you're going to take over, here are our current deals:

NAPs:

T160 with Bisons
T170 with Arkipeller and Yossarian
T190 with Barteq/Rome
T200 with SutOxy and B4ndit

Resource deals:

(Ideally) permanent resource trade with Yossarian (wine/spices) and we have 2gpt to B4ndit for clams that I proposed due to capital unhealthiness.

Espionage: limit spending with SutOxy and Yossarian.

Cities: Cornell is producing a settler for the city marked 'city 17'

Tech: researching Guilds, followed by Alphabet and then either [Paper -> Edu] (if peaceful) or Engineering (if war)

My general plan was to start a Golden Age with our third great person (from capital soon) and use that to switch to Vassalage and whip out a TON of cataphracts and some catapults/macemen/trebuchets (if we get Engineering) and declare war on Bisons. If Whiteeye/Raptourous take control, they can decide what they want to do, but I strongly believe we're in a better position if we utilize our population and temporary advantage due to cataphracts. (Note: if you're going to war feel free to stop building temples in some places and start units.)

Since SutOxy have already won this game, I suggest trying to be in second place.

--------------------------------

Other stuff:

Here is Bisons' latest email.

1) i cant tell you for the moment. but if you cooperate with me, ( so, it will signified we sign a long nap ) i reveal to you if my ally want

2) that nice. they focus on you but not on me, i've no NAP with them. so i easily attack them or tech and give you unit's.
if you help me, assist or other, i make the same with you.

3) we are so equal in military potential, that confirm we havent interest on war against the other
but i have a great advantage in tech i think on the road of rifle. and we could exploit that toogether.
to be honest, i had tech education in 5 turn. for giving you an idee.

4) he not next rifle than me. he hasnt education for exemple and go on democratie. ( i have his tech bye spy point an other advantage for me ) so i have the great avantage of education and all the road of that.
dont forget he his better because of his great age. he is not better than me in PNB potential. ( and take too shorcut i think )

i think we can have a military agrement. as i said, i will have very fast rifle, and my plan is to attack GG who was very late. my plan was to attak him with cavalery, and give my army to my ally next for other target ( because giving city is forbiden but not unit's =) ) . it will the same with you, but your future target dont see that arrived, instead of now because your UU all focus on you. ( you can also extend your nap with them to sleeping them )
or, in the same time i attack GG, you give me your unit + gold and i up them ( for example ) you will so have more powerfull unit's and surprising your target.

in my plan, all my bord will gain 1 land ( minimum ) because of my fast tech and the late of the other's.

if you will agree with the concept, will you agree to sign a 40, 60 80 or 100 turn nap ? ( or a 20 before discuss a more long nap ? )
i think a very long nap will be necessary if we colaborate at this level.

ps : i think my english is not as clear as your's ^^"

This latest email makes me even more irritated. Not trying to sound arrogant, but I think I understand the relative strengths of the other civilizations better than most other players here. Bisons makes it sound like his ally is a secret, when it should be blatantly obvious to anyone who's been playing that he's teaming up to B4ndit. Suttree - no. Us - no. Yossarian/Arki, almost certainly no because we've been chatting with them all game. And if Bisons was teaming up with anyone else, that'd be really stupid. Not sure why he sees the need to keep it secret. He also doesn't seem to realize that SutOxy will get better cities from Arki than he will from Bisons, and that SutOxy's southern neighbor, classical_hero , is even weaker than Rome and also has better cities (with double-digit population points).

And yes, it's worrisome if Suttree is already having Constitution before Bisons is even close to sniffing cuirassiers!

It's just the same with Asterix. I remember before he rudely and impolitely quit on us that he kept saying India (then with Yuufo) was so much more powerful than SutOxy that he vassalized to SutOxy which puts B4ndit in a bad spot.

My evidence that SutOxy was running away, just off the top of my head:

1. They had Mausoleum
2. They are Expansive vs. Imp for India
3. More population and caught up to cities
4. Earlier currency
5. Much weaker neighbors (and yes 'weak' includes Asterix)
6. Asterix had invested spy points on Yuufo
7. (Big one) Yuufo playing turns in 5 minutes, with suttree logging in for 1-3 hours.

His "evidence":

1. "Yuufo knows how to maintain hidden dragon position."

Seriously, WTF?

To be clear, the other players aren't the reason why I can't continue playing, though it's certainly a valid one. It's only because fo time limitations --- otherwise, I'd play to keep the game moving if others are happy.

[DMOC]

Turns 151/152 (820/840 AD)

The reports for these two turns will be just some brief picture dumps. Apologies for this, but as I've explained many times, I have almost no more free time nowadays.

Big thing: Bisons started a Golden Age (and of course, suttree followed suit ).

Note: I didn't do anything for the AP vote. Should I have done something? Interesting ...

[DMOC]

Turn 153 - 860 AD

Bison's latest response was, if anything, slightly more bizarre. I've bolded the part that's confusing to me.

hi again =)

concern city, i talk by observation and experience. i've seen a lot of game, with players who played since many years, and very top players. at this moment of the game, nowhere, nobody invested in a city at this size. in general, a 17 size city can be switch into 2 or 3 city ( fonction of number of food ) who produce more than one. a lot of good player practice the " maillage sérré " ( in french ) = make more city with a few title ( ~ 12/15 ) because it's more effective than big city who need lot of unit's or mood ressource to be effective.

your plan was not so bad, because you have land who will be ready to your plan of produce your UU. but in long term your development will be not good enough if you not take a land who will be already dev in science
for Epic's, there no means i produce this if i havent the accelerate bonus ( marble ? ) so, i havent tech yet. but i tech in the future to go on cavalry.


( concern yuufo i dont tell you criticizing him, just dont underestimate his choice =) i've dont tell you some of information we've decide at this moment, but our original plan was to attak Asterix with maceman, but his great spy change the game and it's that we have choice this civic ETC... )

concern sutree, he tech the astronomic line.

concern arki, if you want help, i can tech guild fast ( that is in my plan for next so that's not too expensive for me ) and help you by giving you some unit's. but only if you sign a agreement. as long as you dont sign anything, i will considering an attak of you and make some things to that.

i'm considering with very attention a cooperation with you. but you really dont know i have potential and experience.
i give you some stats next turn and you will see that with your eyes.

i wait a propose of you for the future.

Bisons

I guess the main thing I'm confused about is why he says having a size 17 city at this point in the game is bad. For reference, here's the bulk of my land this turn, followed by Bison's land.

The capital is size 17 because that's an effective size for it to work its cottages and to generate lots of Great People with the National Epic. (Washington, up north, is now size 16, and we've got a good number of 12s and 13s here.) There are lots of players who are better than me, so I'm confused why Bisons is criticizing my decision. I just don't get it. The city up north of the capital, Caltech, is the true definition of a filler city, and yet it's already a decent size 8 city that will produce multiple soldiers. (It already has a barracks.)

The other thing Bisons said that confused me was his threat that he would upgrade his units. He's got a sizeable number of axes and a few maces by our border. But I just checked in the game, and upgrading an axe (35 hammers) to a mace (70 hammers) costs 125 gold. Even if he can generate 500 gold a turn, that means shutting off his research for a turn equates to upgrading four axes to maces. And logically, he'll want to upgrade his axes to rifles or grenadiers, which are even costlier -- 245 gold just to upgrade one axe to a rifle! Upgrading a spear to a pike costs 95 gold, so we'll have to watch out for that.

Here's the size 16 city, Washington. 1-turn a maceman, then probably a stable I guess, so we can put more overflow into cataphracts? With Vassalage, we can get 7 XP cataphracts.

Our cities are now clearly in military mode. We've got two civilian buildings finishing up, and those will be it I guess, unless we get massive whip overflow.

Technology. Unfortunately, Bisons will get Liberalism. The one time I wish SutOxy got this tech...

Power.

Demographics. Don't forget that we'll be in a Golden Age next turn.

[NobleHelium]

There are lots of players who are better than me, so I'm confused why Bisons is criticizing my decision. I just don't get it.

I don't follow this. How does there being many players better than you mean that Bisons should not be criticizing your decision?

[DMOC]

I think you misunderstood what I wrote, or maybe I wasn't clear. I am asking why Bisons thinks that it is better not to have size 16/17 cities right now and have them spread over size 12-15 cities, and I suspect that better players would understand the reasoning behind Bison's claims (because I legitimiately think that it's good to have higher population cities). I already have size 12 ciities, as you can see. I am not asking why Bisons is criticizing me --- I'm asking about the reasoning behind his claims.