[NO PLAYERS] Lurker Thread for lurkers lurking loudly

[spacetyrantxenu]

So both this forum and thread are appearing out of nowhere but it's long overdue as far as our players are concerned. I've been building a map off and on for the last week now and it's good enough that I can probably post player starts and get them off my back a bit while I finish up and get it reviewed. Anyway, we have a forum now so the players can start creating threads for me to put starting screenshots in. As of now, I'd say everything is still subject to change but I'll be sure to let the players know whether the beta tag is off or not before they go to do their civ/leader combo picks.

They'll be using a different method than a regular snake pick but one of them will explain it. Basically I'll just have to field their orders and solve for conflicts, but it'll work fine. More details...later!

Player list:

Commodore
pindicator
Gaspar
Thoth
Oxyphenbutazone/yuris125 (scheduled sub)
The Black Sword
dtay

[spacetyrantxenu]

Alrighty, I have a map release candidate for review. We're dealing with known commodities in this game so I'm less hesitant about revealing the map than I might otherwise be. Fire away with problems you guys see (wrong tile combos, water jungle/forest, etc.) I tried to stick with natural tiles as possible while keeping things reasonable. I may have made some mistakes in that regard, this map had about a billion changes made to it from the version that I originally rolled.




That's basically what I started with. I moved every start around a bit to clear out room for the civ in the middle. And yeah, it sucks being the guy in the middle, but at least he has fewer land neighbors than everyone else. This was the layout idea:




Maybe not the best possible shape but I had trouble figuring out a more fair way to set up spacing for seven players. In practice, the center civ will have two land neighbors and will need to build a decent navy, but I don't think it's an automatic loss from that position. I didn't like configurations that had four on one side and three on the other, that seemed inevitably to leave people with a lot less land on this script. I could have made a ring where everyone had only two neighbors, but that's not as interesting. More borders means more potential for conflict. Anyway, that brings us to the release candidate:




And now including water tiles in the unfairness rating:




Text dump from Novice's tool (I didn't use the most recent release, but the one prior to that because it gives numbers I can work with more easily):

Total map unfairness (standard deviation in weighted land quality): 1
Player 0
Gandhi of India
199 land tiles.
(106 grass, 71 plains, 8 deserts, 13 tundra, 1 snow. 61 forests, 16 jungles, 1 flood plains, 0 oasis. 59 hills.)
2002.0 total land quality.
10.06 average land quality.
368.0 total food potential.
1.85 food per non-ocean tile.
282.0 total hammer potential.
1.42 hammers per non-ocean tile.
198.0 total commerce potential.
0 coastal tiles.
0 ocean tiles.

14 strategic resources (2 iron, 2 uranium, 2 horse, 2 copper, 2 aluminum, 2 oil, 2 coal).
13 happy resources (2 incense, 4 sugar, 3 wine, 2 gems, 2 gold).
23 food resources (1 rice, 3 deer, 3 sheep, 4 sugar, 2 cow, 3 wheat, 3 corn, 2 banana, 2 pig).
26 health resources (1 rice, 3 deer, 3 sheep, 4 sugar, 2 cow, 3 wheat, 3 corn, 3 wine, 2 banana, 2 pig).

Player 1
Mansa_musa of Mali
202 land tiles.
(88 grass, 68 plains, 9 deserts, 34 tundra, 3 snow. 63 forests, 8 jungles, 5 flood plains, 2 oasis. 52 hills.)
2001.5 total land quality.
9.91 average land quality.
384.0 total food potential.
1.90 food per non-ocean tile.
262.0 total hammer potential.
1.30 hammers per non-ocean tile.
181.5 total commerce potential.
0 coastal tiles.
0 ocean tiles.

18 strategic resources (4 horse, 3 copper, 2 aluminum, 2 coal, 2 uranium, 2 oil, 3 iron).
10 happy resources (2 silk, 2 gems, 2 silver, 2 wine, 2 dye).
22 food resources (3 cow, 3 rice, 2 corn, 3 pig, 3 deer, 5 sheep, 2 wheat, 1 banana).
24 health resources (3 cow, 3 rice, 2 corn, 3 pig, 3 deer, 5 sheep, 2 wine, 2 wheat, 1 banana).

Player 2
Ragnar of Viking
200 land tiles.
(90 grass, 81 plains, 9 deserts, 17 tundra, 3 snow. 65 forests, 0 jungles, 5 flood plains, 0 oasis. 55 hills.)
2001.0 total land quality.
10.01 average land quality.
357.0 total food potential.
1.79 food per non-ocean tile.
291.0 total hammer potential.
1.46 hammers per non-ocean tile.
213.0 total commerce potential.
0 coastal tiles.
0 ocean tiles.

18 strategic resources (3 aluminum, 2 oil, 2 coal, 2 iron, 2 horse, 3 copper, 2 ivory, 2 uranium).
10 happy resources (2 silver, 2 wine, 2 fur, 2 ivory, 2 incense).
20 food resources (3 deer, 4 cow, 3 corn, 2 rice, 2 pig, 3 wheat, 3 sheep).
22 health resources (3 deer, 4 cow, 3 corn, 2 rice, 2 wine, 2 pig, 3 wheat, 3 sheep).

Player 3
Sitting_bull of Native_america
200 land tiles.
(110 grass, 74 plains, 5 deserts, 8 tundra, 3 snow. 50 forests, 17 jungles, 0 flood plains, 0 oasis. 54 hills.)
2001.5 total land quality.
10.01 average land quality.
358.0 total food potential.
1.79 food per non-ocean tile.
283.0 total hammer potential.
1.42 hammers per non-ocean tile.
221.5 total commerce potential.
0 coastal tiles.
0 ocean tiles.

18 strategic resources (2 aluminum, 3 ivory, 2 coal, 2 horse, 2 uranium, 3 copper, 2 oil, 2 iron).
13 happy resources (3 ivory, 2 silk, 2 wine, 2 sugar, 4 dye).
21 food resources (3 deer, 2 corn, 3 sheep, 2 pig, 4 cow, 2 sugar, 2 wheat, 2 rice, 1 banana).
23 health resources (3 deer, 2 corn, 3 sheep, 2 pig, 4 cow, 2 wine, 2 sugar, 2 wheat, 2 rice, 1 banana).

Player 4
Gilgamesh of Sumeria
201 land tiles.
(105 grass, 70 plains, 6 deserts, 17 tundra, 3 snow. 71 forests, 12 jungles, 4 flood plains, 0 oasis. 51 hills.)
2002.0 total land quality.
9.96 average land quality.
371.0 total food potential.
1.85 food per non-ocean tile.
273.0 total hammer potential.
1.36 hammers per non-ocean tile.
212.0 total commerce potential.
0 coastal tiles.
0 ocean tiles.

22 strategic resources (3 ivory, 4 copper, 3 oil, 2 horse, 3 aluminum, 2 iron, 3 coal, 2 uranium).
12 happy resources (3 ivory, 2 fur, 2 sugar, 3 silk, 2 wine).
20 food resources (3 rice, 3 deer, 2 banana, 2 sugar, 2 pig, 3 sheep, 2 wheat, 3 cow).
22 health resources (3 rice, 3 deer, 2 banana, 2 sugar, 2 pig, 3 sheep, 2 wine, 2 wheat, 3 cow).

Player 5
Montezuma of Aztec
202 land tiles.
(134 grass, 66 plains, 2 deserts, 0 tundra, 0 snow. 44 forests, 37 jungles, 0 flood plains, 0 oasis. 52 hills.)
2002.0 total land quality.
9.91 average land quality.
388.0 total food potential.
1.92 food per non-ocean tile.
279.0 total hammer potential.
1.38 hammers per non-ocean tile.
235.0 total commerce potential.
0 coastal tiles.
0 ocean tiles.

18 strategic resources (3 ivory, 2 uranium, 2 oil, 3 iron, 2 coal, 2 copper, 2 aluminum, 2 horse).
13 happy resources (3 ivory, 4 dye, 2 fur, 2 gems, 2 wine).
20 food resources (4 rice, 5 cow, 2 banana, 2 wheat, 2 corn, 2 pig, 2 sheep, 1 deer).
22 health resources (4 rice, 5 cow, 2 banana, 2 wheat, 2 corn, 2 pig, 2 sheep, 2 wine, 1 deer).

Player 6
Willem_van_oranje of Netherlands
199 land tiles.
(86 grass, 83 plains, 2 deserts, 21 tundra, 7 snow. 57 forests, 0 jungles, 1 flood plains, 0 oasis. 51 hills.)
2000.5 total land quality.
10.05 average land quality.
359.0 total food potential.
1.80 food per non-ocean tile.
266.0 total hammer potential.
1.34 hammers per non-ocean tile.
210.5 total commerce potential.
0 coastal tiles.
0 ocean tiles.

16 strategic resources (2 oil, 4 iron, 2 copper, 2 uranium, 2 horse, 2 coal, 2 aluminum).
10 happy resources (2 silver, 2 fur, 2 incense, 2 wine, 2 gold).
19 food resources (4 sheep, 4 wheat, 4 pig, 1 corn, 2 cow, 3 deer, 1 rice).
21 health resources (4 sheep, 4 wheat, 4 pig, 1 corn, 2 cow, 3 deer, 2 wine, 1 rice).

Total map unfairness (standard deviation in weighted land quality): 343

Player 0
Gandhi of India
223 land tiles.
(106 grass, 71 plains, 8 deserts, 16 tundra, 22 snow. 71 forests, 16 jungles, 1 flood plains, 0 oasis. 63 hills.)
2793.0 total land quality.
7.69 average land quality.
649.5 total food potential.
1.79 food per non-ocean tile.
286.0 total hammer potential.
0.79 hammers per non-ocean tile.
481.0 total commerce potential.
140 coastal tiles.
3 ocean tiles.

19 strategic resources (2 iron, 3 uranium, 2 horse, 2 copper, 2 aluminum, 4 oil, 4 coal).
14 happy resources (2 incense, 4 sugar, 3 wine, 1 fur, 2 gems, 2 gold).
39 food resources (6 deer, 5 clam, 1 rice, 3 sheep, 4 sugar, 2 cow, 3 wheat, 3 corn, 2 banana, 6 fish, 2 pig, 2 crab).
42 health resources (6 deer, 5 clam, 1 rice, 3 sheep, 4 sugar, 2 cow, 3 wheat, 3 corn, 3 wine, 2 banana, 6 fish, 2 pig, 2 crab).

Player 1
Mansa_musa of Mali
207 land tiles.
(90 grass, 69 plains, 9 deserts, 34 tundra, 5 snow. 64 forests, 8 jungles, 5 flood plains, 2 oasis. 53 hills.)
2714.0 total land quality.
7.94 average land quality.
654.5 total food potential.
1.91 food per non-ocean tile.
266.0 total hammer potential.
0.78 hammers per non-ocean tile.
461.0 total commerce potential.
135 coastal tiles.
7 ocean tiles.

19 strategic resources (4 horse, 3 copper, 2 aluminum, 4 iron, 2 coal, 2 uranium, 2 oil).
10 happy resources (2 silk, 2 gems, 2 silver, 2 wine, 2 dye).
34 food resources (4 crab, 3 cow, 3 rice, 4 fish, 2 corn, 4 pig, 3 deer, 3 clam, 5 sheep, 2 wheat, 1 banana).
36 health resources (4 crab, 3 cow, 3 rice, 4 fish, 2 corn, 4 pig, 3 deer, 3 clam, 5 sheep, 2 wine, 2 wheat, 1 banana).

Player 2
Ragnar of Viking
218 land tiles.
(90 grass, 81 plains, 9 deserts, 19 tundra, 19 snow. 73 forests, 0 jungles, 5 flood plains, 0 oasis. 60 hills.)
2576.0 total land quality.
8.05 average land quality.
556.5 total food potential.
1.74 food per non-ocean tile.
292.0 total hammer potential.
0.91 hammers per non-ocean tile.
423.0 total commerce potential.
102 coastal tiles.
0 ocean tiles.

21 strategic resources (3 aluminum, 4 oil, 2 coal, 2 iron, 3 uranium, 2 horse, 3 copper, 2 ivory).
14 happy resources (3 silver, 2 wine, 4 fur, 2 ivory, 2 incense, 1 whale).
31 food resources (5 crab, 3 deer, 4 cow, 3 corn, 2 rice, 1 clam, 4 fish, 2 pig, 3 wheat, 3 sheep, 1 whale).
32 health resources (5 crab, 3 deer, 4 cow, 3 corn, 2 rice, 1 clam, 4 fish, 2 wine, 2 pig, 3 wheat, 3 sheep).

Player 3
Sitting_bull of Native_america
219 land tiles.
(110 grass, 75 plains, 5 deserts, 21 tundra, 8 snow. 55 forests, 17 jungles, 0 flood plains, 0 oasis. 59 hills.)
2622.0 total land quality.
7.53 average land quality.
618.5 total food potential.
1.78 food per non-ocean tile.
297.0 total hammer potential.
0.85 hammers per non-ocean tile.
504.0 total commerce potential.
129 coastal tiles.
9 ocean tiles.

20 strategic resources (3 aluminum, 3 ivory, 2 coal, 2 horse, 2 uranium, 3 copper, 3 oil, 2 iron).
16 happy resources (3 ivory, 2 silk, 2 wine, 2 sugar, 4 dye, 1 silver, 2 whale).
33 food resources (3 clam, 5 deer, 2 corn, 5 sheep, 2 pig, 4 cow, 2 sugar, 1 crab, 2 wheat, 2 fish, 2 rice, 2 whale, 1 banana).
33 health resources (3 clam, 5 deer, 2 corn, 5 sheep, 2 pig, 4 cow, 2 wine, 2 sugar, 1 crab, 2 wheat, 2 fish, 2 rice, 1 banana).

Player 4
Gilgamesh of Sumeria
227 land tiles.
(105 grass, 70 plains, 6 deserts, 17 tundra, 29 snow. 87 forests, 12 jungles, 4 flood plains, 0 oasis. 58 hills.)
2669.0 total land quality.
7.92 average land quality.
602.5 total food potential.
1.79 food per non-ocean tile.
274.0 total hammer potential.
0.81 hammers per non-ocean tile.
442.0 total commerce potential.
110 coastal tiles.
8 ocean tiles.

27 strategic resources (3 ivory, 5 copper, 4 oil, 2 horse, 4 aluminum, 3 iron, 3 coal, 3 uranium).
15 happy resources (3 ivory, 4 fur, 2 sugar, 3 silk, 2 wine, 1 whale).
34 food resources (6 fish, 3 rice, 3 clam, 3 deer, 2 banana, 2 sugar, 2 pig, 3 sheep, 2 wheat, 3 cow, 1 whale, 4 crab).
35 health resources (6 fish, 3 rice, 3 clam, 3 deer, 2 banana, 2 sugar, 2 pig, 3 sheep, 2 wine, 2 wheat, 3 cow, 4 crab).

Player 5
Montezuma of Aztec
204 land tiles.
(136 grass, 66 plains, 2 deserts, 0 tundra, 0 snow. 45 forests, 37 jungles, 0 flood plains, 0 oasis. 53 hills.)
2396.0 total land quality.
8.09 average land quality.
553.0 total food potential.
1.87 food per non-ocean tile.
286.0 total hammer potential.
0.97 hammers per non-ocean tile.
420.0 total commerce potential.
92 coastal tiles.
1 ocean tiles.

19 strategic resources (3 ivory, 2 uranium, 2 oil, 4 iron, 2 coal, 2 copper, 2 aluminum, 2 horse).
13 happy resources (3 ivory, 4 dye, 2 fur, 2 gems, 2 wine).
24 food resources (4 rice, 5 cow, 2 banana, 2 wheat, 2 corn, 2 pig, 2 sheep, 1 deer, 1 clam, 3 fish).
26 health resources (4 rice, 5 cow, 2 banana, 2 wheat, 2 corn, 2 pig, 2 sheep, 2 wine, 1 deer, 1 clam, 3 fish).

Player 6
Willem_van_oranje of Netherlands
210 land tiles.
(86 grass, 83 plains, 2 deserts, 30 tundra, 9 snow. 61 forests, 0 jungles, 1 flood plains, 0 oasis. 55 hills.)
2458.5 total land quality.
8.03 average land quality.
542.0 total food potential.
1.77 food per non-ocean tile.
275.0 total hammer potential.
0.90 hammers per non-ocean tile.
417.5 total commerce potential.
96 coastal tiles.
1 ocean tiles.

17 strategic resources (2 oil, 4 iron, 2 copper, 3 uranium, 2 horse, 2 coal, 2 aluminum).
12 happy resources (3 silver, 3 fur, 2 incense, 2 wine, 2 gold).
27 food resources (4 sheep, 4 wheat, 4 pig, 2 crab, 1 corn, 2 fish, 2 cow, 5 deer, 2 clam, 1 rice).
29 health resources (4 sheep, 4 wheat, 4 pig, 2 crab, 1 corn, 2 fish, 2 cow, 5 deer, 2 wine, 2 clam, 1 rice).

Any feedback would be appreciated. I'm trying to make this Gaspar proof, as futile as that is...

PB19_7.0.109-RC.CivBeyondSwordWBSave

Edit: Updated the file, there was a wrong tile at one of the capitals.
Edit2: Updated file again, I added a few ICTR islands for the central civ.

[Catwalk]

I'd love to take a look at it I assume that a cylindrical map was requested? 7-player toroidal would have worked perfectly.

PB17 spoiler:

The aim in PB17 of giving players very different kinds of advantages is actually growing on me. It's extremely difficult to balance, but I think it creates a very interesting playing experience. Is that what you're going for here, or are you trying to balance each aspect individually (ie. all players have ~ same amount of land, same amount of happiness, same amount of food resources, same quality capital, etc)? The latter is more common, make sure players are on board with it if you go for the former again. Which I'd be all for, btw. I'm guessing Gaspar would strongly prefer the latter, although I could be wrong.

[Krill]

If the map is cylindrical you jus t fucked the middle guy ith a fire hose.

[Jowy]

Nice player list, this could be an entertaining game.

[Dhalphir]

this game came out of nowhere, right? this isn't the tides of war one?

[Jowy]

this game came out of nowhere, right? this isn't the tides of war one?

I think it is the tides of war one. We might be heading toward invite-only pro games and open green games as the two basic setups. Not sure if I like it. Smaller skill variance makes for better games, but I'm worried that some people will feel left out.

[Qgqqqqq]

It is clearly not the ToW one, as discussed in several threads. It is presumably a game that has been in discussion amongst a group for a while and has finally reached readiness.

[spacetyrantxenu]

This game is BTS, they've been waiting on a map for about a week now. Jowy, don't you think it's a bit early to say we're headed toward some new future when this kind of setup has now happened exactly once now? And if someone wants to organize a game I don't see what the big deal is. Play against who you want to play against, obviously none of these players have a problem with it or they wouldn't have signed up. And the games are primarily for the players, after all. Don't feel left out, anyone who wants a game can organize it at any time.

Krill, do you have any alternate suggestions for how to improve the center starting location? If naval vulnerability is the problem I could block of access from one direction using a mountain chain in the water, or something else to reduce the number of neighbor interactions. Would that be fair? If so, which civs would you recommend segmenting? (They did ask for a cylindrical map).

[SevenSpirits]

I'm conflicted about this game. On the one hand it looks like it will be very interesting. The roster is very nicely balanced and filled with people I like to lurk. On the other hand, one thing I like about RB is it's not particularly cliquish - it's always been possible for people who want to play a game to just, you know, sign up for the game. Setting up the full roster in private, while effective, is very unwelcoming in my view.

I'm not saying that I think they should have accepted any random newbie, or in fact any players at all who don't fit the desired skill level. That's perfectly reasonable. But they could have just made a thread saying they are setting up a second-tier vets pitboss, without being exclusive about it. That's what I would have preferred they had done. I do accept that it's their prerogative to do it this way, I just don't like it and I don't support it out of principle.

On to the game. I'm not sure I understand the picking system, but Zara looks like the clear top pick to me... so does that mean no one will get him? (Gaspar: "you get your highest rated no duplicate choice". We can't take that quote literally though, because if everyone submits 10 picks, it's likely that several players will submit only leaders that are duplicated by other players' picks.)