RB Pitboss #2 [SPOILERS] - Peter of Byzantium

[regoarrarr]

Hmm also they took Paris on T56. If we assume 3 turns of unrest, plus 15 turns for them to pop 3rd ring borders (7 culture per turn), they should get that copper on T74 i.e. next turn. So axes nonetheless coming soon.

[regoarrarr]

Okay - logged in to check things out.

Fairly sure they got Iron Working last turn. They got a big increase in power, and they also moved their no promo chariot to the grassland iron.

Also, 2 chariots have moved up from Paris.

So 2 chariots and 1 warrior 1W of Athens
1 chariot on the iron
2 chariots (forgot to check if there were promos) 2SE of Athens.

I am really starting to like the whole exploring peace option, potentially for the GP.

In my mind Jowy is the enemy now - while the Ottomans knocked us out of the game, they did so in a way that, in retrospect, was the right move. They HAD to attack us, as darrell pointed out. And while I still want to ensure that they don't win the game, Jowy's move was worse.

I mean for game balance reasons, the correct move was to help us survive (barring some kind of crazy very pro-Greek deal with the Ottomans). He had the definite chance to help us win - he had iron, and he had trade routes to us. And he chose to let us die.

So I want to make sure he doesn't win either. (Man am I bitter or what?)

[Rowain]

I mean for game balance reasons, the correct move was to help us survive ...

I disagree. What would he gain if he supported your survival? Not really much compared what he can gain if you exit the game early.

(PS: Didn't we have this discussion just a few days back?)

[regoarrarr]

For the record, with no input before I needed to play, I picked a settler and Operation Shilling.

I disagree. What would he gain if he supported your survival? Not really much compared what he can gain if you exit the game early.

(PS: Didn't we have this discussion just a few days back?)

We sure did. And we both feel the same way now.

Looking back at the opinions so far stated, I think it stands:
Jowy should have supported us: antisocialmunky, sunrise, regoarrarr, Sullla
Jowy should not: Rowain
Unclear or unstated: darrelljs, dazedroyalty

Not that it really matters, since really we won't know the truth until we can open the threads and know what Jowy knows. And I do appreicate your posting here because it's nice to have differing opinions on things.

Still, in my book, Jowy has screwed us way worse and for much more dubious reasons than the Ottomans.

[Rowain]

My opinion has nothing to do with what Jowy knows or not It is in that case simply my opinion.
Would I be at Jowys postion I would for sure not support you. I still have not seen any argument or reason why he should do it.
If you survive he has to make borderagreements with you over land he can easily claim if you die.

[regoarrarr]

My opinion has nothing to do with what Jowy knows or not It is in that case simply my opinion.
Would I be at Jowys postion I would for sure not support you. I still have not seen any argument or reason why he should do it.
If you survive he has to make borderagreements with you over land he can easily claim if you die.

But we already told him he could have everything between us!

[MWIN]

Not that it really matters, since really we won't know the truth until we can open the threads and know what Jowy knows.

Jowy does not update his thread often. Probably you will never know

[Cyneheard]

But we already told him he could have everything between us!

That isn't much of a concession. If you're dead, then the Ottomans would have to really stretch out their necks to get anything west of Athens (and have less culture in Athens). So I'm going to go on the record and say "no, I don't think Jowy needed to support you."

[Spronz]

Well you can put me in the column of not understanding why you're so upset and so sure you think he should have helped you. I understand why you'd really want him to help, but can't understand how you can feel so strongly that it was basically a backstab, horrible move and poor strategy. You're basically offering him nothing in exchange for him sticking his neck out for you in early part of the game.

Plus wasn't it you earlier who sent message to India with talks for forming an alliance with him just to crush him later Not that he'd know that.

Anyways, good luck

[regoarrarr]

Email I propose to send to the Ottomans today (time is of the eseence here)

Hey Athlete / Kalin,

So, I thought it was again time to drop you guys a note. Time has passed, tempers have cooled (if you were annoyed by what we ended up saying, you should have SEEN some of the drafts :-D ), and here we still are. Your chariots are enjoying our lush Byzantine scenery. You have researched Iron Working last turn, and will have seen where the various iron deposits are. If my math is right, you will shortly have the copper at Paris hooked up and of course there is iron there too.

So the main impetus for writing you is... well let me see if I can put this in Civ in-game diplo-speak. Just as you let us know that our "head would look good on a pole" when you declared war, we are writing to say that you are no longer our "worst enemy". And so you may be interested in working out some sort of deal with us.

I mean, at this point, you have Paris (I hope you will not mind my referring to it by its old name, at least until They Might Be Giants write a song about it), you have a sizable force near Athens, and you have essentially crippled our civ. We stand a miniscule chance of winning this game, IMO.

So the real question at this point is whether it makes sense to completely eliminate us or not, should you be able to. Obviously it's a risk as to whether or not you can eliminate us, in a given timeframe. I think that should you decide to devote a majority of your resources to it, in due time you would be able to achieve that. The question is instead, is that the best avenue for your resources? While you are still chopping and whipping out chariots (and likely soon axes and swords), other teams are massively expanding. You will of course already noted how many cities Sullla has.

So our proposal is that you let us live, and we will serve as sort of a "meat-shield" in front of you. We cede Paris, as well as the river valley north of Paris. In addition, we realize that one reason Athens might be attractive to you is now the GPP from the Oracle, which would fit nicely with your holy city. They would have fit nicely with our holy city too, except we forgot the most important part of the plan - not losing the holy city :-D So we will give you our great prophet. I understand that you can attack Athens and capture the Oracle, but that will delay your shrine.

An example: If you leave Athens alone, the Prophet will be born on T97 (we're Philosophical!) Let's say best case your 5 chariots beat the odds and take Athens this turn (T73). At 2GPP, after say 5 turns of revolt, your GP will be born on T128. So that's 31 turns of shrine income you lose. It's at least 31 gold, not to mention if there are other cities that have Buddhism already and the 31 turns of increased auto-spread chance. This is all not to mention the fact that it keeps your GP gene pool pure so your first one can be more useful (Sci for academy, for example).

Honestly at this point, we would probably be up for just about anything. I'd prefer to avoid the outright vassalage, because it's a little crude and hard to enforce exactly before Feudalism, but we would be willing to act according to your general intentions. But obviously we're not in the position of strength here :-D

Anyway, time is a bit tight of course, and I assume that you need to talk things over with each other, but hopefully we can hear something soon. I should be around most of the afternoon / evening if you want to chat to iron out details, pardon the pun :-D

I know darrell is out on Christmas mode, but I would prefer either you or sunrise to be okay with this before I propose such a major shift in policy.

If they take us up on this, I still want to make sure that they don't win (though maybe I'll soften as time goes on). Which is why I'd prefer to avoid vassaling or offering what we offered Jowy (never attack him and always come to his aid).

And Jowy, for the record, if/when you read this, we did not start negotiating with them until you turned us down. So at least IMO it was not a matter of trying to just play every side.

At this point, I am real skeptical that we can hold out in Athens, even long enough to invoke Operation Shilling. That's T83, which is 10 turns, and they probably have copper up soon and iron soon after. Our best hope is that they make sure they have to bring overwhelming force, allowing us to escape.