RBP2 Lurker Discussion Thread - No Players!

[SleepingMoogle]

That may be true, but as far as we know, he is still planning to attack India as well. There's not a lot to gain if he lets the Byzantians die, and then can't settle their lands because his hammers are spent on military. Right now his plans benefit the Ottomans far more than himself.

[BobRoberts]

Was wondering if Kathlete had mentioned to Jowy about theri plans wrt the Incans? That might make him feel happier about the byzantines getting eliminated?

Think Jowy's diplomatic silence and settling of 'white dot' might have done team Spulla a real favour - think their 'backup' city plan was a stronger location in the short term and a much more defensible location. Plus building up their military really doesn't bode well for the Dantski/Jowy plan?

[Spronz]

That may be true, but as far as we know, he is still planning to attack India as well. There's not a lot to gain if he lets the Byzantians die, and then can't settle their lands because his hammers are spent on military. Right now his plans benefit the Ottomans far more than himself.

He's on the good side of Otto so he's likely to have good negotiations for land with his border with them and probably get some of Byz land without a fight. It also sounds like he may be able to get some units from them to help in his fight and being on their good side could secure one of his borders. All this from giving them some info and not helping Byz.

Helping Byz he delays getting to use his only metal resource, potentially gives away his military plans to India when he needs to request back his metal if Byz aren't done with it in 10t, only has about a 50% chance in gaining a weak ally on the border (50% chance they'll be killed of anyway), pisses off Otto team that will likely be his neighbour in the future, delays growth of Otto for a little while longer.

He gains practically nothing by helping them and loses a lot. Plus I don't blame him for not trusting Regoarrarr's diplomacy. From what I've read in the other game he's always planning a move ahead and if you haven't heard his far future plans then normally your on the receiving end. And as we've seen reading here he's already discussed taking out Jowy with India after allying with him for a bit.

He certainly could have played this better diplomatically though so as to come off less suspicious that he's up to something.

[Shoot the Moon]

He gains practically nothing by helping them and loses a lot.

He actually would gain a lot. Kathlete's economy would still be in the tank because they have to invest even more hammers in military instead of workers to improve their land (I don't believe they have even one cottage built yet). He gets more land to his east the longer the war goes on. On top of that, if he were to have taken Sulla up on the offer, he would not lose metal at all, and would deprive Spulla of metal for 10t.

I think the best plan for him would be to secure a NAP with Spulla and settle aggressively to his east while giving Byzantium metal (in exchange for getting Spulla's copper). If Byzantium survives, he has a buffer against kathlete that will forever not trust kathlete. If they die, kathlete would most likely be pretty badly behind in tech from having to whip/build so much military. Especially in a game with no tech trading, a team that gets behind in tech (especially if Jowy can get a military tech advantage) isn't really a threat.

[MWIN]

Well the major danger to Jowy at the moment is Spulla. There is nothing anybody can do, if they run way with the game.

[Bobchillingworth]

Personally I'm getting a bit tired at the sense of entitlement in the Byz thread. They settled a stupidly aggressive spot, they lost it through their own poor play, their civ is crippled, and yet they still act like other teams have an obligation to stick their own necks out to help them. It doesn't help that Rego is a known double-dealer who isn't above selling out long-term allies and taking some questionable liberties with the game rules.

[Spronz]

He actually would gain a lot. Kathlete's economy would still be in the tank because they have to invest even more hammers in military instead of workers to improve their land (I don't believe they have even one cottage built yet). He gets more land to his east the longer the war goes on. On top of that, if he were to have taken Sulla up on the offer, he would not lose metal at all, and would deprive Spulla of metal for 10t.

I think the best plan for him would be to secure a NAP with Spulla and settle aggressively to his east while giving Byzantium metal (in exchange for getting Spulla's copper). If Byzantium survives, he has a buffer against kathlete that will forever not trust kathlete. If they die, kathlete would most likely be pretty badly behind in tech from having to whip/build so much military. Especially in a game with no tech trading, a team that gets behind in tech (especially if Jowy can get a military tech advantage) isn't really a threat.

Their economy is already in the tank, a few more turns isn't going to do a whole lot more and isn't worth the exchange of making a real enemy. Plus if he were just expanding he could easily just start settling east in peace right now into Byz lands no problem. Even if Otto killed Byz off right now and started expanding and didn't offer good settling plans with Greece then Greece could still easily out expand them in that direction due to their healthier economy.

That said, Jowy's plans aren't focused on that, they're focused on dealing with the looming India on his other border so it most certainly makes more sense to not tick off the guy with the big army on your other side right before you're about to try taking on the biggest civ in the game run by two of the top players.

Personally I'm getting a bit tired at the sense of entitlement in the Byz thread. They settled a stupidly aggressive spot, they lost it through their own poor play, their civ is crippled, and yet they still act like other teams have an obligation to stick their own necks out to help them. It doesn't help that Rego is a known double-dealer who isn't above selling out long-term allies and taking some questionable liberties with the game rules.

I think he's just a bit upset to potentially be eliminated early on so isn't being very rational about it which is completely understandable

[Shoot the Moon]

That said, Jowy's plans aren't focused on that, they're focused on dealing with the looming India on his other border so it most certainly makes more sense to not tick off the guy with the big army on your other side right before you're about to try taking on the biggest civ in the game run by two of the top players.

If he is planning to go to war with Sulla, the best possible thing is for his other neighbor to be tied up in a war himself for as long as possible.

[MWIN]

But he needs Iron for swords. Copper can't do it.

Above all he made a secret pact with Ottomans. It’s basically a trust issue. Sulla trusts Rego more than Ottomans. Jowy trusts Ottomans more than Sulla or Rego. I guess there is a balance there. Any other way, Jowy is screwed. If he trusts Spulla and Rego, then there is a chance that both of them will make sandwitch out of him and then eat it.

If he is planning to go to war with Sulla, the best possible thing is for his other neighbor to be tied up in a war himself for as long as possible.

[Bobchillingworth]

If he is planning to go to war with Sulla, the best possible thing is for his other neighbor to be tied up in a war himself for as long as possible.

Possibly, but only if he thinks that he can eliminate or hopelessly cripple Sulla and/or prop Byz up until the lategame; otherwise he will be in the unenviable position of being surrounded by hostile nations.