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[Hashoosh]

Sane and/or European

[Lord Parkin]

Civilization Picks: Snake Pick,ABBA

Like this?

As stated before, I'd be interested in a Tides of War game. I like all the proposed settings, and I'd be willing to either assist with mapmaking, or act as a dedlurker/teammate. I might even be tempted into playing... we'll see.

To those who don't know much about Tides of War, the main feature of the mod is that Aggressive becomes Agricultural (+1 food on tiles with 4 food), while Protective becomes Productive (+1 hammer on tiles with 4 hammers, also a Worker and Work Boat bonus). There are also a couple of other trait tweaks (e.g. +150% GP Philosophical), a few minor unit tweaks (e.g. 7 strength War Elephants), and a few bug fixes (e.g. trade route calculation). That's pretty much it. The design goal, as opposed to RBmod, is to minimize the number of changes from base BTS so that games can be run approximately fairly without the need for any bans. I'm a strong supporter of it.

To answer Bacchus' concern: yes, the extra food and hammers from the two replacement traits are clearly powerful once you get to Biology and Railroad. However, that's the point - they're not particularly powerful until that point. I view the new traits as sort of the inverse to traits like Expansive and Imperialistic from BTS: you could pick a trait that's strong in the early-mid game but weak in the late game, or you could pick a trait that's weak in the early-mid game but strong later. I've tested several Tides of War games with my partner, and nothing seems game-breakingly powerful to us. You could debate about a few minor tweaks, but the current balance is definitely in the right ballpark.

[SevenSpirits]

I think most people on RB would take issue with describing me as sane Whosit, but yes, d/m/y.

That's it, from now on I'm thinking of Krill as "sane Whosit".

[GermanJoey]

To answer Bacchus' concern: yes, the extra food and hammers from the two replacement traits are clearly powerful once you get to Biology and Railroad. However, that's the point - they're not particularly powerful until that point. I view the new traits as sort of the inverse to traits like Expansive and Imperialistic from BTS: you could pick a trait that's strong in the early-mid game but weak in the late game, or you could pick a trait that's weak in the early-mid game but strong later. I've tested several Tides of War games with my partner, and nothing seems game-breakingly powerful to us. You could debate about a few minor tweaks, but the current balance is definitely in the right ballpark.

This is the way I feel about it too. All the traits feel fairly competitive with each other; the metagame feels expanded compared to the base game rather than rearranged like RBmod. (which I like too, fwiw)

[Barteq]

In.

I would prefer ToW, but can also play on BTS or other mode.

[suttree]

However, that's the point - they're not particularly powerful until that point. I view the new traits as sort of the inverse to traits like Expansive and Imperialistic from BTS: you could pick a trait that's strong in the early-mid game but weak in the late game, or you could pick a trait that's weak in the early-mid game but strong later.

Is there a post where critics of AGRI/PROD have their say?

Seven explained his valuation of AGRI here and my concern is that the added traits are modeled to be strong (enough) in the early/mid-game.

Are ~1f/city (delayed by several turns) and 50% worker bonus sufficiently weak that the "inverse expansion trait" comparison holds?

[NobleHelium]

I think most people on RB would take issue with describing me as sane Whosit, but yes, d/m/y.

That's it, from now on I'm thinking of Krill as "sane Whosit".

I actually read the sentence the same way.

[GermanJoey]

However, that's the point - they're not particularly powerful until that point. I view the new traits as sort of the inverse to traits like Expansive and Imperialistic from BTS: you could pick a trait that's strong in the early-mid game but weak in the late game, or you could pick a trait that's weak in the early-mid game but strong later.

Is there a post where critics of AGRI/PROD have their say?

Seven explained his valuation of AGRI here and my concern is that the added traits are modeled to be strong (enough) in the early/mid-game.

Are ~1f/city (delayed by several turns) and 50% worker bonus sufficiently weak that the "inverse expansion trait" comparison holds?

For whatever its worth, I made loads of posts at the start of my PB20 thread of what I think of the new traits; I think the improved Cha and Imp traits are very strong too. Also, I think you're overstating the boost that Biology gives Agri; are five food grassland farms really something to brag about in the modern era, as compared to 5h productive workshops and 9 commerce financial towns?

[Lord Parkin]

However, that's the point - they're not particularly powerful until that point. I view the new traits as sort of the inverse to traits like Expansive and Imperialistic from BTS: you could pick a trait that's strong in the early-mid game but weak in the late game, or you could pick a trait that's weak in the early-mid game but strong later.

Is there a post where critics of AGRI/PROD have their say?

Seven explained his valuation of AGRI here and my concern is that the added traits are modeled to be strong (enough) in the early/mid-game.

Are ~1f/city (delayed by several turns) and 50% worker bonus sufficiently weak that the "inverse expansion trait" comparison holds?

True, Agricultural is more of a medium game-long benefit. You could farm over your grassland towns post Biology for a bunch of 5 food tiles, but it'd be shooting yourself in the foot. Nice for the Globe Theatre city, not really anything else. On the other hand, Productive is quite good very early and very late, but does very little through the bulk of the midgame.

I posted a longer analysis of Agricultural vs Productive near the start of my PB20 thread. I think the Worker/Work Boat bonus of Productive could be nerfed from 50% to say 35%, but it's not critical. Otherwise I think the trait is fairly balanced. I genuinely think Agricultural is pretty much fine as it is. It's hard to believe until you've played a few games with it - I know I was skeptical at first, thinking +1 food on every food resource would be insane. It's surprisingly not that noticeable a difference though - nice to have, but no better than the benefits many other traits offer.

[Azza]

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