[Spoiler] RB Pitboss #2 - Shaka of Rome

[Whosit]

OK, had some issues with my comp and router this evening. Here's the post I would have had up . . . new turn flipped over, will do that in another post just so I can organize things.

Anyway, ye lurkers might be laughing at me. Seems India wasn't ignoring me. Probably. E-mails tell the tale:

Dear Galactic Emperor,

We actually offered Open Borders in-game at the very start of the current turn - before you sent the email bugging us about it! Best wishes to Bib Fortuna on his continued scouting mission.

Cheers,
Sullla
The Killer Angels

Dear Sullla and Speaker,

I would like to apologize. I appear to have been under the impression that I had checked the status of the game earlier today and had not seen an offer. A quick look at Civstats disabused me of that notion. I had not logged on since the start of the turn, so I apologize for the accusing tone in my last message. The Empire thanks you heartily for the offer of Open Borders despite this faux pas, an offer we have confirmed.

Bib Fortuna also thanks you for your good wishes, and hopes that he is not eaten by a lion, beaten by a barbarian, or finds himself on the bad side of a Hutt.

Best regards,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

Yeah. Sometimes I just . . . can't remember things in chronological order.

Anyway, spied some things:





India appears to have some desirable land. Look at those winding rivers! I wonder why they settled one-off from the coast. Well, I suppose that spot grabs a lot more river-side grasslands to cottage . . . .





My lands, and the lands to the west, are relatively dry. Just that one river Korea has, really.



The area the Zulu would have had is much more fertile, I think. I will probably want to expand in that direction, now that I think about it. Yeah. No further west than Korea is currently, probably. But the Inca will probably beat me to most of it. I saw another Settler heading south.

[Whosit]

So there's this gem:



I'm willing to bet my hat that team India got it. They are Philosophical and have Writing. Sullla also knows how to put Great People to great use. I know less about Speaker, but I have no doubt that he is a formidable player as well. I know I've heard the name before, but I can't remember where.

Anyway . . . .

Barbarian town out east:



It's not right next door, but it's close enough to cause problems. I would love to attack it, but I can't spare any units right now. Maybe later . . . .

And that Incan Settler I mentioned:



Let's see. 2 Archers in P'yongyang. No big deal, but I'm sure that number will only grow.

2 Archers and a Chariot in Wonsan. I knew they had a Chariot hiding somewhere. They should have kept it in the fog . . . . I'll definitely have to get a spare Spearman to defend my workers when I launch my attack. The Galley is gone, no sign of the Settler. Where will they go?

T73, and my best bet from before was a declaration in about 10 turns, maybe a bit more. 8 Praetorians. Korea could more than double their defenses in that time. So long as they don't get metal . . . . I could win, but it'll be harder. Damn. Oh well. One step at a time.

I still have this turn to rethink my strategy with Kuat. Do I really want a Granary before a Barracks? Hmm . . . it would still be better long-run . . . . I'll sleep on it.

Edit:

Nearly forgot:

Dear Whosit,

We still haven't fully analyzed your last email, but we wanted to give
you an update on the war situation. We also wanted to thank you for
your concern and offer to help, we hope we'll return all this one day.

Byzantium got the Oracle this turn as you may have seen and they got
IW with it. How do we know? There's a little trick that would be
useful for you to know to: if you look at tile yields (toggle that
button on or just hover over tiles) you can see within the territory
of a civ with IW which tiles have an extra hammer which tells you
where the iron is. For example, we can see where your iron is (1SW of
the gold) but no worry, we won't tell anybody!

Byzantium does have iron 1E of their capital across a river. The
situation however is under control as far as we can tell, but we do
have to be careful because they have 2 workers so they can can hook it
up in only 2 turns given it's on a river.

This explains their sudden jump in score: the Oracle and IW gave them
all that, but nothing much to worry about.

We are working on a revised attack plan because our previous plan was
off a bit, but off in a good sense We'll update you as soon as we
can, at the moment I believe we could eliminate Byzantium on turn 85
or 86.

Kalin for Team A/K of the Ottomans

They're still "analyzing" my letter? Hmmmm . . . choice of words? Heh heh.

Not exactly sure what they're talking about with the spotting Iron. Can't they just put the resource locater on? And I could tell they got IW because their score went up by 12 . . . . Hm. Interesting. So there are other starts that have Iron right next to the capital.

[Whosit]

Well, rather glad I ended up staying awake past my bedtime. The turn flipped over and I happened to get into a long chat with Nakor of the HRE. Rather than post the entire conversation (which I still don't know how to do, anyway ), I'll just write an executive summary with commentary. (Having read many of the PB1 threads, I never really liked those long blocks of text.)

One important piece of information that Nakor gave me was that there was a Barbarian Axeman not too far east of Kuat. Unfortunately, it's probably going to destroy his Warrior. I diverted my newest Praetorian, Trooper PR-002, to Kuat in order to intercept a possible threat. One nice thing to note is that Nakor followed through with an earlier request to let me know if he spotted any Barbarians near my territory!

We chatted a bit about Korea. He was asking me when he would expect to hear the war horns sounded. I denied aggressive intentions, of course, though I tried to do so with a wink. Not entirely sure how he took it, but I didn't get the impression that he thought I was trying to trick him. I never found a good chance to ask him how his team felt towards Korea. I might write a follow-up letter tomorrow, though I'll want to choose my wording carefully.

He said that he has semi-regular contact with Korea. Didn't really ask about that, since I didn't want to pry too much. He also noted my seeming attempt to deny Copper to Korea. Now, wherever did he get that idea? I asked him about the Romali. He seems a bit worried about the whipping that they have been doing. He didn't seem completely sure what they had whipped, so I'm not sure if he can't read the espionage numbers, or if he was just feigning ignorance. Either way, doesn't bother me. I gave him some tactical advice, but neither of us know much about the Romali territory (it seems his team neglected to adequately explore the territory of their neighbors).

The India situation came up. I think that he's fairly worried about them, insofar as they will probably dominate the game. After a bit of thinking outloud, I think that Sullla made an Academy with his Scientist. Ever since Athlete and Kalin said that GNP #1 was India, and when I noticed that the #1 spot had jumped significantly . . . well, I just guessed an Academy would best explain that. I don't think that their score has jumped in such a way to indicate a Bulb, and Settling a Scientist this early would be foolish.

They are going to have a monstrous tech rate.

I suggested that the only way to beat them was a coalition, although Nakor wasn't sure when such a thing could take shape. My best bet, which I didn't get to elaborate on fully, would be a joint naval assault. Because the Inner Sea connects everything in a relatively short distance, several Galleys full of troops could drop things off on Indian shores and try to wreak some havoc. It would be quite the undertaking, and no one I know is in a position to do that.

Umm . . . I can't recall any other major points that came up. He seemed like a good guy, though, and I think that I can work with him. Hopefully his partner is on the same wavelength as he is. Just gotta find out what their stance on Korea is.

I'm second-guessing myself a bit, but . . . so long as I don't let a war drag out too long, I should be fine. The real question is: How large will their defense force be before I actually get a chance to attack? Will it take me so long to prepare for war that I might as well be peaceful with them? Dunno.

Anyway, it's late, that's about it. More updates later.

[Whosit]

I kind of feel like I've died, but that's not the case. Better late than never, but I wrote the HRE a letter. I don't think that it's my best work, but it's alright. I'm starting to find it harder and harder to strike the right balance between enough and too much information. I still don't really trust anyone fully. I think I'll be happier once/if I eliminate Korea, just so I don't have to worry about getting a knife in my back.

Dear DMOC and Nakor,

I apologize for not writing to you sooner; this time of the year has kept me quite busy. I wanted to say that I was glad to have a chance to speak with Nakor in real-time. If you will pardon my phraseology, I got good vibes from the conversation and I think that our two civilizations can definitely cooperate. Among other things, Nakor and I discussed the danger of India: They could very well run away with the game if no one opposes them. While I would not suggest doing anything drastic at this point in time, I do not think that it is too early to plan for the future. Perhaps there are other civilizations out there who share the same worries. In the meantime, the Empire would be happy to offer Holy Rome whatever assistance is possible, although I must confess that our resources are limited at this time. The best that I can offer right now is tactical advice, for what that's worth. My intelligence on the Romali (I hear that you are having some troubles with them) is limited at best, but if you still have the opportunity, it would be a good idea to scout out as much of their land as possible if you fear they are preparing for an attack--if only to glean what resources they might have. Also, if you did not already know, all Civilizations have access to Horses, so a few Spearmen might be a good investment.

Speaking of tense relations, it is probably no secret that the Empire and Korea are not on the best of terms. I imagine that you have open trade routes with the Koreans; I know that they have researched Sailing because I spotted one of their Galleys. At the moment, I think that we (the Koreans and I) are stuck in an arms race, but things are relatively equal. In the event that the Koreans make a request for aid, I would appreciate it very much if you refrain from trading to Korea any Strategic Resources because it would no doubt make the situation much more unpleasant. I hope that you do not object to this request.

I would also like to thank Nakor again for pointing out a roving Barbarian Axeman near my territory. I am simply sorry that one of your Warriors will have to pay the price for that information. The odds are not stacked in the Warrior's favor, I think. If you wish, I can describe what I know of the land to the east, although it is not especially spectacular from what I can tell. The ruins of the Zulu lie in that direction, however, and I think that the IKZ Interregnum has begun to expand into that region. I also think that the central island will be of particular interest, but I cannot explore that until I have learned Sailing.

I am sorry to have kept this brief, but I simply did not want to let our communications cool too much. Please get back to me as soon as is convenient for you as I would like to keep our dialogue open. On a final note: Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, or whatever else might be appropriate!

Best regards,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

The clause in there about the Koreans is important, though I wonder if I was too blunt. Then again, being too subtle may have been no good, either. Oh well.

I am getting more worried about a potential war. Korea will probably have at least twice as many Archers as I have Praetorians. My main advantage is that I could concentrate my firepower, while the Koreans (presumably) will defend their cities roughly equally. Maybe more defense in their frontline cities. So I'll probably face 4-5 Archers minimum, with perhaps 7 or 8 Praetorians. Could get dicey, but I could always pillage their territory if I have to . . . . Anyway, that's still many turns away, I think. Hrm.

[Whosit]

Some correspondence. If others have been posting these already, I'm sure that it has you lurkers talking.

From Kalin (pardon all the text he copied from my original letter):

Dear Whosit,

Since it's been so long since we got your long message, I had to
"analyze" it again. Also, as a disclaimer, Athlete and I still didn't
get to fully discuss it, so this is mostly from me (Kalin), and
Athlete may still have some additional comments. I didn't want however
to wait without answering so here you have it as promised

At the moment I feel we have an informal alliance. You have been very
friendly and your offer to give us copper didn't go unnoticed or
unappreciated. We'd like this to evolve into something more, but it
may take some time to iron all the details for something formal. Until
then, I have a few suggestions we can implement immediately that
should be mutually advantageous:

* We can sign a NAP in perpetuity with a 10-turn cancellation notice.

* We would help each other in wars if any of us needs help. The help
should be discussed on a case by case basis, but should include
troops, resources, money for upgrades and others.

* When establishing resource trades with other people we should
consult each other first, in case we can make a deal between
ourselves. Here we should be a bit careful to make some trades with
others so that we don't tip the others too much on our relations.
People would get nervous when/if they find that their opponents ally.

All of the above are only suggestions and open to discussion. Let us
know if you also have any other ideas. The NAP in particular is meant
as a temporary solution until we establish some formal alliance.
Again, let me tell you again that we consider you a friend, and we
feel we fave an informal "de facto" alliance already.

> You are both right to say that settling the central island is not going to
> happen in the near future. I know that the Empire will most likely need to
> develop a stable financial core before attempting overseas expansion.
> Nonetheless, one of my first priorities after researching Sailing will be to
> scout out that region. I already have a city on the inner coast--Kuat--and
> it has a bright future as a heavy-production city (the name is no
> coincidence). It should be able to produce Galleys in short order, although
> I estimate that I am fifteen-to-twenty turns away from completing Sailing.

How long until you discover Sailing. The email is a bit old I forgot
what turn we were on at the time. Let's try to use absolute numbers in
the future, like turn 85, so that we can better remember. We expect to
have Sailing by turn 80 (I am not 100%, but it's the right ballpark).

It's great to hear you already have a city on the inner coast, congratulations!

We are thinking to go Mathematics/Currency after Sailing. One of the
reasons for Currency is not only to help our economy, but also that of
our friends. Here's a suggestion/idea: once we get Currency we can
help you with gold to research along the same lines, and maybe you can
make and gift us a city or two on that central island. We would need
to discuss more the details, but here's how I see the benefits:

* For us: we don't have to rush the port city on the inner coast,
build a galley and settler(s).

* For you: when expanding the maintenance costs will become high and
research will slow down a lot; our help would address exactly that
weakness allowing you to reestablish your economy fast.

> Kalin, thank you for pointing out the world wrap. It is actually something
> that I have been aware of for quite some time. I never mentioned it because
> I believed that it was known by everyone else as well, but I see that may
> not be the case. Perhaps we can use this to our advantage, but we should not
> assume that it is secret knowledge. (I learned about the toroidal world wrap
> when I made a world builder replica of the world and the city maintenance
> fees weren't adding up right.)

I'd rather err on giving our friends more information rather than less
We are glad you knew already, and I suspect that some of the others
may know too, but we didn't... I don't think everybody knows, so let's
also not assume that

Did you build a world builder replica of the whole map? I'd be
impressed if you did. Also, I don't know much about city maintenance
costs differences between cylindrical and toroidal maps. I'd
appreciate if you could tell us a bit more or point us to some
article.

> I also agree that this news makes Sailing more valuable, although I think
> that we will have more luck using the inner sea rather than the great ocean,
> at least early on. I am not certain that Galleys will be able to find safe
> routes across the great sea. On the other hand, If we are move more quickly
> than the Inca, we may be able to secure a route on the inner sea.

You are probably right. We do intend however to investigate if there
is a possibility of navigating on the exterior ocean to reach the
"other side". If that's possible, the whole idea about who's close and
who's far may change a lot. We'll let you know if we learn anything.

> I am still gathering information on the locations of other civilizations. I
> do not think that I have found anyone else who already has a port on the
> inner sea, but I am not certain. Once we reach the point that colonization
> appears feasible, I think that we may want to focus on the eastern parts of
> the central island in an attempt to shut the Inca out completely. We will
> also want to discuss partitioning of the land, but that will of course wait
> until the area has been scouted and we are both actually in a position to
> Settle.

This sounds like a good plan, particularly in conjunction with our
proposal a bit earlier. For now, I think we can keep this discussion
between us, and we'll see about having other allies sharing the island
a bit later, based on how things develop.

> Based on Athlete's suspicions, it is disconcerting that India may be trying
> to assist Byzantium. I cannot imagine that they believe they can save
> Byzantium, but they most likely see value in tying up the Alliance in a
> prolonged war. I suppose I will have to be wary in case they attempt to
> assist Korea in the future . . . .

We'll address India a bit farther below.

> Now, regarding the Koreans. I am a bit curious about this "catch-22"
> situation that you mentioned, Kalin. I understand that you do not want to
> play both sides, something you mentioned in a previous message, but I was
> wondering if you would be willing to clarify your position. Specifically, is
> this a concern you once had, or still do? And would I be correct to assume
> that, in the event of armed conflict between Korean and the Empire, the
> Ottoman's official stance would be neutral? I do trust you, but as a wise
> man named Tarkin once said: "I am taking an awful risk here" each time I
> mention my intentions towards Korea.

I did address Korea in a previous email, I hope you were satisfied
with my explanation We'd like to ask you now, if you could share at
all some of your plans, in particular if you have a timeline. You'll
see in a bit why I am asking. Anything you tell us, we would not tell
anybody, we understand how important it is!

> In any case, there is one more thing that I would like to ask: Does the
> Ottoman Alliance currently possess Copper? I have been wondering if your
> choice to pursue Horseback Riding was one of preference or necessity. If we
> are able to get a trade route connection, I will be able to loan your Copper
> if you require it, though I imagine that the war may be over by that point.
> Still, it is an open offer.

Thanks again about the offer, fortunately it's not needed. The choice
of HBR over IW was because HAs are actually better than swordsmen
against archers. We did some simulations and not only they have better
odds (ignoring first strikes) but also they have a chance to retreat.
Please don't tell anybody we got HBR! Byzantium thinks we got IW
instead because they have an equal score in the power graph! We
wouldn't mind if they don't learn about it until they see the HAs

> On a final note, we should move cautiously as we form alliances. We've named
> half of the competition (you, me, the HRE, and the Greeks). If things work
> out, and our cooperation becomes too overt, there's a good chance the
> remaining civilizations will create an alliance, perhaps supporting India. I
> have no idea how we can diplomatically isolate Sullla and Speaker, but if
> either of us sees an opportunity to do so, we should take it.

We fully agree here. We should proceed very cautiously.

> P.S.: I spent enough time working on this letter that a new turn has
> started. Many scores have jumped! I know that in the case of India, they
> spent a turn moving before settling, so some of that is probably from
> expanded borders, but I'm not sure how much of it is. I have read enough of
> Sullla's work to know that he is a master at increasing his score, although
> I strongly doubt that he is attempting to boost his score for its own sake
> at this point in the game. I realize that it is not wise to read too much
> into scores, but it can still be a useful tool.

We heard that India got Mathematics which along with border expansion
is what contributed to their score jump.

Now to tell you about an idea on India that I hinted at a bit above.
We have started to work on organizing a coalition... of the willing to
take on India and slow them down a bit. We started by probing Mali and
HRE. Mali was ambiguous, so we sent another probe. HRE was slightly
more responsive so we got to the point and sent them a pretty clear
plan proposal: an attack on turn 100 where everybody would send some 6
units with the main objective of pillaging India as much as possible,
and taking/razing cities as a secondary objective. The benefits of
such an action are that we slow down (or even more) India, we may
capture some workers, and we get some money from pillaging. We intend
to get *everybody* involved in this action, this way India will never
know exactly how the whole thing started. We still need to engage Inca
on this plan, and I am not sure how much to engage Korea...

This is why we asked you before about your plans and timeline. We know
you are quite far, but if you manage to get a galley and send just a
couple of aggressive Praetorians that may be enough. Even if you are a
bit late to the party, it is still important to try to participate.
Even if you have "enough on your hands right now" a war makes you
fall behind (we speak from experience ), which is why is even more
important to not let India become unstoppable.

This is quite a bold plan. It is of course important that we keep it
hidden from India. It is also important to act fast because with their
GNP/research rate, India may just become too advanced. However, if we
execute the current plan I think it's very likely to be successful. I
am confident about it because people are worried already about them:
they had a GNP of over 100 on turn 74 fueled by a great scientist and
most likely a lot of financial riverside cottages.

I think this is all for now, whew Again, let me tell you I didn't
discuss this message with Athlete, which I will need to do, but I
wanted to send you something as promised.

Best wishes and Happy Holidays,
Kalin for Team A/K of the Ottomans

And from Nakor:

Dear Whosit,

A Merry Christmas to you as well! With both children sleeping I finally have some time to respond to your mail.

Thanks for your kind words. We both feel that cooperation with your civilization would greatly benefit us. We also thank you for your words of advice in the chat. Luckily we have seen in the graphs that Dantski's last three whips didn't go into arms. Still a spear is nice to have.

Regarding your relations with Korea, we've heard indeed that they are troublesome. We're in no position to trade valuable resources at this moment and we would only do so if the benefit to us would be greater then to them. And frankly, we can't see that happen in the near future, and besides that, we don't want to antagonise our relation with you. So I can't promise that we won't aid them if the benefit is very great to us. What we can promise is that we'll notify you of any deal we make with Korea regading units/resources beforehand. We do hope that your two countries won't be in an arms race for to long, since then we might feel threatened as well.

Our warrior lost to that barb axe, so he's coming your way. That could pose a problem in the future.

But what I really want to talk to you about is India. We've spoken with others who have the same fears as you do. Therefore we're trying to create a plan to hamper them a lot and maybe even take some cities from them (next to pillaging). The plan would have to be carried out by 5/6 civs who all bring 4-6 units to the war zone to be succesfull. A declaration on turn 100 sounds workable. Are you interested in aiding such a plan? I don't know how research is going, but a few preats would help such a war greatly. And maybe Korea would be interested as well, what do you think?

Please keep this conversation between us, and we hope to hear from you soon!

Regards,
Nakor of HRE

Not quite as long there.

Anyway, interesting stuff. I have drafted responses to both, but I'm going to wait until tomorrow so I can edit them (and not be as tired--I should have been in bed hours ago). Basically, I think it's an interesting plan to strike at India. My planned war with Korea could make it tough to meet that time table, but we'll see. I'm not even 100% certain there will BE a war. If Korea grows their army too large, it'll be more dangerous to attack, and I also need to keep enough troops at home to defend myself. Maybe do a whip or two early on to protect my guys. Dunno.

Anyway, I'm also asking them both not to invite Korea, mainly because I'm worried that it could cause Korea to build even more troops in anticipation of the assault. Not sure that they would be willing to send troops to the war if they fear I'll stick a knife in them (I would) and I don't want to be forced into a NAP with them.

Speaking of, in my reply to Kalin, I am going to express my desire to avoid NAPs on principle. Partly because I do think that they don't mean as much as more proactive agreements, like mutual-protection pacts, I guess, or plans to favor the other for trades. Partly to see what he'll say. But I won't deny the possibility of a NAP, either.

Um, oh, right. Question to Lurkers (again): What could cause score changes of 2? Still haven't figured that one out.

Other thing I have been wondering about: How much income Korea is pulling in. Probably more than me, what with all those river tiles, but they have been whipping their cities a bit. I don't expect them to keep whipping, but we'll see. Hopefully they won't build TOO many troops out of a fear of bankrupting themselves. Unfortunately, I expect a fairly tough fight. I won't want to attack Wonsan directly, but I probably want to disconnect their Horses. Still, Chariots are relatively easy to counter, in a way. I might be better off capturing P'yongyang quickly. We'll see if any of that is even possible, of course.

[novice]

Um, oh, right. Question to Lurkers (again): What could cause score changes of 2? Still haven't figured that one out.

I don't know any details about C&D but I guess it could be a combination of many things, such as a tech discovery or land tiles and (double) whipping.

[Krill]

Yeah, and extra 2 land tiles always means gaining an extra 2 score. Tech is always a multiple of 6 depending on the era the tech comes from. Population and wonders varies depending on the maximum amount of population the map can support.

[Whosit]

Well, thanks for the info. I'll try to make sense of it. Anyway, got some more correspondence. I'll probably be drowning this thread in mail, heh.

(On a side note, I've been meaning to dig through the thread to see when LiPing might come back. Some help crunching all the numbers would be nice . . . .)

OK, so here's my message to the Ottoman Alliance:

Dear Kalin and Athlete,

Quite a lot to mull over.

Alliance

First of all, it's good to hear that we both seem to be thinking along the lines of "de facto" alliance, ironic as it may be. As I've mentioned before, I agree that it will take some time to fully develop a partnership, which would include open trade routes and the ability to travel between our civilizations. Still, I would like to begin making whatever arrangements are possible.

Clauses that include mutual support would be nice--it would make sense that at least some level of support would be required in time of war, with additional help to be negotiated. That way, there would be little risk of one party "standing the other up," so to speak. Obligatory assistance should probably be something relatively non-intrusive, like resource or cash grants. Something more serious like "loaning" troops, or even a joint war declaration, would require more discussion. Just a thought.

I also like the idea that we would consult each other before shopping around for a resource trade as it is similar to something I was thinking about myself. I also agree that we should be careful not to make it *exclusive* trading, but that's what the consultation is there for.

A research plan that attempts to minimize how often we each must pay first-time cost would be part of an alliance, I assume. We should begin discussing the details, especially considering the fact that you seem to be ahead of the Empire in some key areas. I will try to think of other ways to actively foster an alliance, although I must admit that the inability to trade technologies will require some more creative methods than usual.

NAP

As for the NAP, I would rather not sign one. Before you take that the wrong way, here is my reasoning: I dislike them on principle. NAPs, by their very nature, are proscriptive and are simply agreements to leave each other alone. I feel that the best way to create an alliance is through mutually-beneficial prescriptive agreements, such as the agreements to assist or trade with each other that you mentioned above. I do not think that NAPs are able to create that kind of good will.

Of course, I understand the value that others place in NAPs and that they are considered serious business here. It is simply my opinion that they are superfluous when compared to more, shall we say, binding agreements. However, please keep in mind that I am not saying that I won't sign a NAP if you strongly desire it; I just do not see as much value in them as many others do.

Technology

Now, as for Sailing: My detour to Iron Working has taken a toll on me, as well as my work on Masonry, I suppose. I am going to begin work on Writing, and then Sailing. I estimate about 20 turns total, but I cannot be certain. So maybe Sailing by Turn 95 or so. The good news is that I'll be in a position to build Galleys immediately. I may tech faster if many others have Sailing--Korea already has it, and you will finish it before me. But let's say Turn 95.

I will have to think about your proposal to gift a city. I suppose it's similar to gifting a Settler, except that I would have already founded the city. Cash in exchange could be very useful, though we would have to discuss what would be a fair price, and it may require a deal to split the inner isle ahead of time. If I could find a way to gift you a Galley, that might be a better option, although I suppose that would still require you to control at least one tile of water on the inner coast.

World Builder

I wish that I could have built a replica of the entire world! I built a replica of the known world, and updated it accordingly, but I have not updated it lately because the accuracy of my replica is decreasing. I did not duplicate all the other civilizations or their tech paths, so that may have affected some of the values. Some lurkers pointed out the effects of world wrap on city maintenance, and it was along these lines: City Maintenance is calculated by the maximum possible distance between the capital and any give city, and with a toroidal map, there are more possible routes, so the distance segment of maintenance will increase. I don't recall reading an article on it, but there may be one on the Civ Fanatics website.

Korea

Now, you asked about my time table for Korea. It is a bit . . . fluid, but unless they pull out any surprises, I hope to begin combat around Turn 85 or so. Unless their military increases at a greater rate than anticipated, and unless they acquire Copper or Iron, I believe that I will have an advantage. I am not so naïve to believe that I can win a fast a decisive victory, but right now I believe that the odds are in my favor.

I do have specific strategic goals for this war: Korea basically controls the largest and closest river to my civilization. My goal is to wipe them out and seize this territory for myself and turn it into a financial core, hopefully making up for the damage the war will do to my economy. At this point, it will be financially difficult for me to expand further in the near future, but with three or four cities dedicated to producing commerce, I may be able to grab more land in the direction of the Interregnum, which I am sure would not displease you.

India

Considering my intentions, I would prefer that Korea is NOT invited to the war party as it will probably just make them build more units than they might otherwise. Chances are that they do not trust me enough to send off their units to fight on a foreign front. The downside to my plans is that it is close enough to your Turn 100 plan to strike India that I may not be able to field as many units on that front as would be preferable. However, once I have Sailing, I intend build/whip a pair of Galleys and ship at least 4 Praetorians to India via the inner sea. In fact, I think that traveling by sea may be the best way to strike quickly . . . although that might encourage others to get ports on the inner sea, which could be bad for us right now.

Still, it's not a bad plan at all. Having a specific time-table is good, though we'll have to see how many others expect to be ready. If my war against Korea goes well, I can afford to send more troops. Coordinating this plan will probably require mass messaging to ensure that everyone is on the same track, and perhaps some coordination of units. Keeping it secret will also be trickier the more people are involved, but maybe if everyone really is afraid of India it will work out.

It would also be best to have a “Commander-in-Chief” for the mission. I gather that you are fulfilling that role. I volunteer for the position of “Strategic and Tactical Officer.” In twenty-five turns, India will surely be more powerful than they are now. It also sounds like you have better intel on their technologies than I do. If they have Mathematics, they may have Construction by the time we strike. We will want to make sure that at least two participants bring Horse Archers to the field in order to damage enemy Catapults. We will also want to make sure that each participant coordinates with at least one other; Sullla and Speaker probably can’t fight off four or five enemies, but if we are all disorganized, they may have a chance. Four well-coordinated strike forces working in unison can probably cause a lot of damage to India. If you can get more to aid us, that would be wonderful.

Conclusion

So, you've pulled another long e-mail out of me. Hopefully it's not too much information. Let me know any ideas you have for forming a more official alliance. You also know about my plans for Korea now. I admit that there is some degree of risk, but I think that the pay-out is worth it in the long run.

If I recall correctly, the game will be unpaused sometime tomorrow? I will try to keep an eye on the timer to make sure that I do not miss the last half of the turn, though I suppose there will be a reload if too many miss the game.

One more thing: You are not the only party to approach me regarding the attack on India. They have asked me not to mention them, but do I have leave to acknowledge your role in this? I plan to ask them the same question because I think, as I mentioned already, that we should begin active collaboration on this task soon. At least, with the most trusted participants so far. You may drop my name to anyone who seems trustworthy.

Best regards,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

Do you guys even need analysis of this one? I think I've explained myself clearly enough for everyone to understand me . . . . This is better than my first draft, at any rate. I got a brief message from Kalin which seemed to indicate a positive response. I'll be interested to see if he pushes for a NAP or not. For the record, everything I said regarding that is true. I really don't think NAPs mean very much. I mean, they should be taken seriously when signed (yeah, yeah, look who's talkin'), but I don't think they are a good tool for developing close ties with others. Exchanging favors is probably more effective.

Here's what I sent to Holy Rome:

Dear Nakor and DMOC,

I am glad that you are at least frank regarding your plans. I understand that it is your right to make trades that are in your own best interests. However, I am confident that Korea cannot offer you anything that I cannot. I would also like to add, simply for the sake of candor, that the Empire would consider trading Strategic resources to the Koreans an act of aggression towards the Empire. Of course, I do not expect this to become an issue, but I simply wish to let you know clearly where we stand. If necessary, I will do everything possible to open trade routes with Holy Rome sooner rather than later in order to give you another option for foreign trade.

I would also like to assure you that the tensions between Korea and the Galactic Empire do not threaten the Holy Roman Empire. The Empire has no intention whatsoever to attack Holy Rome. However, if you have specific concerns regarding this, please share them so that I may address them.

I would again like to thank you for sharing your intelligence on Barbarian movements. Your Warrior’s sacrifice will not go unremembered.

But, let's discuss what you really came here for: The assault against India. I have heard of this plan from another party as well: A mutual friend, I believe. I would be very much interested in assisting although I am not certain that I can meet a Turn 100 declaration promptly. I am fairly certain that I will be able to contribute, though I am certainly willing. At the time of this writing, I expect to be able to send about four Praetorians shortly after Turn 100. I believe that this plan has promise, but we will certainly want to begin coordination and specific planning sooner rather than later.

I would actually prefer that Korea was not included in this plan as I fear that it might cause them to accelerate their military build-up even further. I do not think that they would significantly aid the effort, either. Additional military production on the part of Korea would probably jeopardize my ability to send troops to India as well and, not to sound pompous, I think that Aggressive Praetorians are of more value than a few Archers. I hope that this request is not problematic.

And, of course, this conversation will be kept confidential, although I believe that it may be wise to include other willing, trustworthy civilizations in this planning before too long. I fear that it will be difficult to manage such a significant undertaking if each participant is not kept on the same page. I give you permission to acknowledge that the Galactic Empire is interested in this plan when you consult with other civilizations about this plan. Do I have your leave to identify you to trusted allies?

Again, I would like to stress that the Empire wishes to develop close ties with Holy Rome and that you have our full backing on the plan to attack India. They are an enormous threat that needs to be dealt with sooner rather than centuries later. May your empire flourish, and I hope to hear from you soon.

Best regards,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

I actually have a response from them, but I'll post that tomorrow. No need to throw another mountain of text at you guys all at once. Anyway, this coalition vs. India should be very interesting indeed . . . . It's going to be a logistical challenge, and a diplomatic balancing act, as well. My opinion of my diplomatic skills has been steadily declining, but . . . . Well, I'm sure a more neutral observer can make a better judgment there. I do have high regards for my Civ tactical abilities. Anyway, somehow, I am sure that Sullla and Speaker will see this coming. Either someone will leak info to them, or they'll catch on . . . dunno. It could get ugly. Could be fun, though.

My priority, though, will be taking on Korea. Maybe I can work out a deal with the HRE, somehow. All I can think of at the moment would be something like: In exchange for military assistance, I'll cede claim to all the land west of the Koreans right now, but it's not very good, and I don't think the HRE can really help me, either. I suppose I could always ask, though. Still, they'll probably be busy preparing to attack India.

Once I get closer to T85, I'm going to start planning my moves. I want to capture/raze one of Korea's cities early in the war, and then raze/capture the other. Ideally, I'll get rid of their border cities and put pressure on their capital, which should give me enough space to send troops to India. But things never go that smoothly, right? Basically, I'm going to start planning for everything that might go wrong.

[Whosit]

Just a relatively brief update. I'm going to start summarizing my mail for the most part, unless you lurkers really want to read everything in detail.

The so-called "Coalition of the Willing" is taking off. Can't say I care much for the name, but that's not terribly important. I'm actually a little sad that it's coming to this, but I think that it is in our best interest to try and eliminate India.

I've made a change to my tech plans: I'm going to do Sailing before Writing because I think that I will get more immediate benefit from the former. I don't think that I'll be building libraries any time soon, but I might be able to get a little foreign trade, as well as Galleys. The bad news is that my tech rate is abysmal. The Koreans are clearly teching faster than me. They just got Writing, and it looks like they researched it in 7 turns. It would take me at least 10 turns at 40% to do it, and probably a few turns longer as my costs increase (building troops). They haven't built any cottages that I can see, but perhaps they have done so in the fog. Pyongyang is probably working 1 Cottage right now.

I only have Byss to rely on for cash at the moment. I may want to go back and adjust some things . . . .

Also, Imperial Center may be in some danger. Wonsan is going to grab several tiles, I think. There's a forest I never cleared, and it may be too dangerous to do that now. It's not directly adjacent to my capital, but it could still cause trouble.

Anyway, Nakor at least seems to be taking my side over the Koreans. And it sounds like the Romali are on board, but that has not been confirmed yet. I'm still waiting on a more in-depth reply from the Ottomans on my last message, but I know that it can take them a little bit.

Not too much else right now. I think I may shift Imperial Center from the hill tile to a lake tile for a little extra gold. I think it might help, though I'll check to see how much that will delay troops, so it might not be worth it.

[Whosit]

Mail call! This is what the Ottomans sent me as a preliminary response to that last letter. Seems so long ago . . . .

Dear Whosit,

Thanks for being so responsive with the CoW, and also thanks for your
enthusiasm We are equally excited about the whole thing.

Here are some answers to the specific issues from your previous email.
We left out for now the alliance issue, but that is because we want to
send you a separate proposal soon.

> Clauses that include mutual support would be nice--it would make sense that
> at least some level of support would be required in time of war, with
> additional help to be negotiated. That way, there would be little risk of
> one party "standing the other up," so to speak. Obligatory assistance should
> probably be something relatively non-intrusive, like resource or cash
> grants. Something more serious like "loaning" troops, or even a joint war
> declaration, would require more discussion. Just a thought.

It's great we're on the same page. Given that until we have trade
routes and/or currency there is not a lot we can do for each other but
then again, a mutual war will also be a ways away as well.

> A research plan that attempts to minimize how often we each must pay
> first-time cost would be part of an alliance, I assume. We should begin
> discussing the details, especially considering the fact that you seem to be
> ahead of the Empire in some key areas. I will try to think of other ways to
> actively foster an alliance, although I must admit that the inability to
> trade technologies will require some more creative methods than usual.

Certainly as we become closer more detailed strategies can be shared
so as to maximize our research bonuses. You already know our tech
plans for the short term and whilst we may be ahead in some areas we
are behind in others (IW for one). However given that we have been
waging war for approximately 15 turns we are still comfortable that we
are progressing well.

> Now, as for Sailing: My detour to Iron Working has taken a toll on me, as
> well as my work on Masonry, I suppose. I am going to begin work on Writing,
> and then Sailing. I estimate about 20 turns total, but I cannot be certain.
> So maybe Sailing by Turn 95 or so. The good news is that I'll be in a
> position to build Galleys immediately. I may tech faster if many others have
> Sailing--Korea already has it, and you will finish it before me. But let's
> say Turn 95.

I am a bit curious, why did you need Masonry?

> I will have to think about your proposal to gift a city. I suppose it's
> similar to gifting a Settler, except that I would have already founded the
> city. Cash in exchange could be very useful, though we would have to discuss
> what would be a fair price, and it may require a deal to split the inner
> isle ahead of time. If I could find a way to gift you a Galley, that might
> be a better option, although I suppose that would still require you to
> control at least one tile of water on the inner coast.

In order to gift a settler, it would need to be in our territory which
would delay settling a lot. The idea is to found a city, then gift it
to us immediately, which is equivalent to gifting the settler. This is
ok because it's a permanent gift. We have done this several times in
RBP1. Let's start discussing what would be a fair price for such a
city.

> Now, you asked about my time table for Korea. It is a bit . . . fluid, but
> unless they pull out any surprises, I hope to begin combat around Turn 85 or
> so. Unless their military increases at a greater rate than anticipated, and
> unless they acquire Copper or Iron, I believe that I will have an advantage.
> I am not so naïve to believe that I can win a fast a decisive victory, but
> right now I believe that the odds are in my favor.

I don't understand why you think you cannot win a fast decisive
victory against Korea. You have Praetorians, they don't have metal. If
I were in your shoes, I would 2-pop whip each city, then put one chop
as well, to get 6 praetorians very quickly then roll Korea with them.
You have had IW for a few turns now, no? I think your plan to take
Korea out is good. It is important however to move quickly so that you
can get back to development quickly.

We addressed India with the cow... I mean with the CoW Thanks for
being fast and forthcoming on the issue, I honestly think it will
benefit us all in the long run.

Regarding roles in CoW, I think we should all count as equals and
nobody should assume a specific role. For example, having one be
“Commander-in-Chief” could somehow imply that they are above others in
the coalition which may not be a good thing. That's just my opinion,
however, so if you'd like feel free to suggest that to the CoW.

That's it at the moment, we'll send something very soon about the alliance.

Athlete and Kalin of the Ottomans

The most interesting thing they bring up is the whipping. I haven't been doing a whole lot because I'm not terribly fond of it. Well, yes, I know that it's very useful to get infrastructure in, and I've learned a lot about manipulating the whip for overflow and such. I suppose I just prefer larger cities that produce more hammers. Well, let's look at what I've got.

Imperial Center is putting out 13 hammers per turn. If my calculations are right, that gives me Praetorians every 4-3-4 turns, etc. My plan at the moment was to whip out an extra Praetorian for home defense when war begins. Or the turn before, rather.

Carida: When it reaches size 5, it will get 17 hammers. That will produce 3-3-2-3-3-2 turn Praetorians, or 3 every 8 turns. It currently has no Granary, and a small food surplus, so I do not plan to whip it at all.

Kuat: When it reaches full size, it's hammer output should rival Carida's, though I don't remember how much. Ah, I think it'll be 16 hammers per turn. That's basically 3-turn Praetorians. If I build a Workboat (or whip into one), whipping this place may be worth it. Fish (5 food), Grassland Cow (4 food), unimproved Sugar (3 food): I can grow it back reasonably quickly if necessary. It has a Granary, so I may whip something out before the war starts.

Byss: My only commerce city, and a poor one at that. I will never whip it, ever.

So, out of Four cities, Two are whipable. The question, then, is how often to whip them. I suppose I should try and resurrect my World Builder to see. Though one reason I haven't whipped Imperial Center yet is because I'm hoping to grow it into the lake tiles, since even those 2 commerce can make a difference for me at this point. Hm.

Any opinions on my logic? Am I being too conservative with the whip? Or can I get by with a couple of emergency whips once the war starts? What the Ottomans don't understand, I think, is that I am essentially facing a two-front war. I'm going to be attacking P'yongyang, since Wonsan grabbed a critical tile, and I'd rather avoid the hill for now. If I play my cards right, I should still be able to blindside Korea, but we'll see.

Also, I was going to make a dot map for you guys to look at, but . . . I've been playing a single player game. I won! It was awesome, shoulda been there.

I'll get it up tomorrow, probably.