[NO PLAYERS] Lurker Thread for lurkers lurking loudly

[Krill]

Out of interest, how would the range normally be defined? ie what's a low yield start, what's a high yield start etc?

[spacetyrantxenu]

Specials comprised of a Commodore (plains cow) and a Xenu (plains wine) would probably be on the low side. Maybe throw in a Catwalk (stranded seafood resource) for the ultimate low end start.

I'd view the range as being something a typical map script is liable to give you. The starts here were all delicious but I don't think they were impossible, although I don't know all the rules of all the usual map scripts. I tried to give everyone the same numbers of tile types just reshuffled and following the map start norms that I was aware of.

[SevenSpirits]

Out of interest, how would the range normally be defined? ie what's a low yield start, what's a high yield start etc?

Interesting question. I decided to sample 5 most recent PBs and PBEMs from our completed games forum, picking what looked like the middle thread from each one.

PB11, Oxyphenbutazone:

+0 capital, 5/0/1 rice, 4/1/2 sheep (& 2 FPs)


PB12, Jowy:

+0 capital, 5/0/2 fish, 5/0/1 sheep, 4/0/2 crab


PB14, Parkin/Arki/Magno:

+0 capital, 5/0/2 fish, 5/0/2 sheep, 5/0/0 deer
(option: -1 turn, gain +1h capital, lose fish.)


PB15, Novice:

+0 capital, 6/0/1 corn, 4/1/2 sheep


PB16, Wetbandit:

+0 capital, 6/0/1 corn, 2/1/4 fur, (& 2 FPs)
(option: -1 turn, gain +1h capital, lose fur and both FPs.)

-------------------

PBEM50, Ichabod:

+0 capital, 5/0/0 corn, 4/2/1 cow, (& 2 FPs)


PBEM53, Dhalphir:

+1h capital, 5/1/0 pig, 4/1/2 sheep


PBEM54, Bobchillingworth:

+0 capital, 5/0/2 sheep, 4/0/2 crab, (& 4/0/0 rice)


PBEM55, Yuris125:

+0 capital, 5/1/1 wheat, 4/1/1 sheep, 0/3/5 silver
(option: -1 turn, gain +1h capital, lose sheep and silver but gain 4/0/2 crab.)


PBEM56, Dtay:

+0 capital, 6/0/1 corn, 5/1/0 pig


(Notes: Only considered games in the standard ordering. Skipped pbem57 due to being an unusual variant setup with pre-known tiny map. Skipped pbem52 due to no screenshot in the thread I checked.)


In this data, the low end is approximately 2 (average) food resources (and nothing else), while the high end is about 3 (average) food resources (and nothing else). The starts in this game, by comparison, are better than a 4 food start with nothing else. Of course, the starts I randomly sampled do not show the full range. I can think of worse starts and better starts than the ones I've posted here. So when I said I thought the starts from this game were at the high end, I thought there were other games' starts that they were comparable to.

[GermanJoey]

This is unmodified BTS, right? SoZ seems like it would be so incredibly powerful on this map, great play by TBS. How is anyone supposed to seriously invade him now? The sheer amount of units needed to overcome the amount of units that he'll be able to field means that the invading player will be forced to eat an immense amount of WW even if they win all their battles.

[Mardoc]

Presumably the same way they could invade him anyway: small bites followed by pauses for consolidation, or a dogpile where the work is shared. I don't seriously expect any grand crusades to work in this field, not even Commodore's.

But honestly I think TBS is hard to invade because he's playing well and is big with lots of production. Not because he's got the Statue. That's just the icing on top.

Edit: To be fair, I don't think Commodore is really planning to win a direct war. I think he's hoping to provoke a dogpile.

[Bobchillingworth]

I'm going to try the novel and unexpected Praetorian/Cannon military! And why not?

Well, because CII Knights will get decent odds on the Cannons, and they're a lot cheaper & more mobile. And the Cannons will always defend first.


Right? Am I missing something here?

[spacetyrantxenu]

At least the knights won't flank the cannons.

Edit: He'd almost assuredly have some pikes in a preatorian/cannon stack, too, just for stack defense. I'm looking forward to how this plan plays out.

[Mardoc]

they're a lot cheaper

Only 10 hammers cheaper, 90 vs 100. Relying on CII means you've got to amortize the Stable into that, too. Also, Xenu's right, Commodore's researching Engineering right now. If I were trying to wipe an invading cannon/Praet stack, I might consider 70-hammer maces instead; Str 8 will probably do enough damage to a cannon that the second mace wins.

I still don't expect it to work, 1-mover land invasion seems bad. I don't seriously think Commodore can make it to Steel, build a stack, and march it anywhere relevant before his target can pick up Cuirs.

[spacetyrantxenu]

I still don't expect it to work, 1-mover land invasion seems bad. I don't seriously think Commodore can make it to Steel, build a stack, and march it anywhere relevant before his target can pick up Cuirs.

It sounds like something that would be hilariously fun to do to an AI, though. I can only imagine one scenario where having cannons at your disposal would still require a swordsman to finish off killing an enemy force.

Like, when this is the enemy force. Cannons aren't gonna cut it.

[Bobchillingworth]

Huh, I thought Cannons were a lot more expensive. Never mind, then!