[Spoilers PB23] Old Harry's attempt at civilizing AdrienIer

[AdrienIer]

You're right, an early trait is probably mandatory. Bismark could be the solution.

I've given civs a lot of thoughts, and with not knowing which version we'll play and what our starting position will be I just can't make up my mind. Carthage Rome or the Dutch if water start, China France Inca Ottomans Zulu if not are on my current list. It all depends on necessary starting techs.

[Old Harry]

I think the consensus in the setup thread was RtR, so lets assume that until we know otherwise.

I wonder how much info Krill is going to give us about the map. So far we know the map is a Monarch 76*28 tile Toroid.
- Knowing if there are islands or continents would help us decide if Carthage is great or just alright and how early you want Alphabet/Currency or cottages
- Knowing the number of land tiles would also give you an idea of how tight the neighbourhood will be - the closer together civs are the more important an early trait will be
- I think RtR sets maintenance on toroid maps as if its cylindrical so we won't have to beeline currency, but too much time spent on religion or wonders could be problematic

Now that Byzantium is a fishing start (is it still a fishing start?) you could even consider them . With RtR tech costs go up around gunpowder, so UUs that appear then will get a longer lifespan than you'd expect.

[AdrienIer]

Carthage + the GLH + the ToA is one of the only ways to make the ToA worthwhile, but unless we're certain that TR can be intercontinental I'm not sure I want to try that. RtR does set maintenance on cylindrical, and sets Byzantium as myst/fish but cataphracts are 11strength immune to first strikes now so not as OP as before (still great).

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Cool I'll jump in and out a bit then! Also to take Old Harry's point about Byz, with nerfed eles to str 7 you will have odds on those too, and combat 1+2 phracts are equal to combat 1+2 pikes, and shock phracts have odds in the open, so It is still a unit that dominates it's time even with the nerf. You would be looking killing everything in your way until rifles/curs/jans really. I love the phracts. They are a nightmare if you can get them past an enemies border cities, and if you threaten 2-3 cities at once you have basically taken one.

IND has also been buffed twice indirectly, with less marble/stone help for wonders and MC being cheaper for quicker forges.

I would love you to pick rome and to see some aggressive pret action, as I said in our pitboss 22 thread I really think they are actually buffed not nerfed with the mod. They still are cost effective vs eles with both having a str reduction, are now cheaper at the cost of a normal swordsman and the 50% city attack is killer. That is 10.5 power without any promos! An axe fortified on a hill is 7.5 with a 50% attacker str reduction so it would be 7 vs 7.5, and with the prets higher base str you gain with each promo. After cats causing a small amount of collateral you are laughing. The difference is they will need a few axes and a few spears as stack defenders now, but you can get more prets for your hammers as they are cheaper.

Zulu also have had a nice buff with the base barrack cost now the same as an irkanda and giving culture, plus hunting now being a more expensive and useful tech.

Ad why are you so keen on the ToA? :P it is fairly expensive at 350 hammers for what you get out of it, and basically garentuees your first GP to be a prophet, so unless you have religion that might be annoying...

But yeah a wait for the start is a fairly nice idea.

[AdrienIer]

I'm not really keen on the ToA, it's just that it's one of the most useless wonders and I'd love to see it put to good use someday.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Well, I think the most it offers is +5GPP, although they are all priest points. Depends if you really need a priest or not. So it has mild utility there. If it gave scientist points and a free scientist, plus the trade route bonuses rather than the priest, IE an early great library light, I think it would get built for the GS GPP. In fact that might be a god way to mod it to something mildly useful...

[AdrienIer]

So any news on the map ? I'll be traveling tomorrow so won't be there to discuss much. I'll be back home Sunday. The friend I'm visiting has Civ 4 so I can still do stuff and be present on the forum during the week but not as much as when I'm home.

[GermanJoey]

I think you're both underestimating the ToA. Not to say its an uber-wonder that every civ wants, like the MoM or TGL, but in the right situations the ToA can be very powerful. It does a number of things for you, a few of which you are mistaken about:

1.) The ToA does indeed give +5 GPP, +3GPP of Priest type from the free priest specialist and +2GPP of Merchant type from the building itself. Both of these specialists can be very useful on the right map types, and both types are fairly difficult to generate early. For example, to see the power of shrines, take a look at dtay's thread in PB18, as I'm sure he has some bragging pictures of his incredible Jewish shrine there. GM are also great on maps like PB18, where an ICTR is just a short galley hop away across a tiny straight; sneaking in trade mission across another continent is worth at least 1100 gold- in the deep BC years. That's SO many turns of 100% research. A Phi civ could even combine that with an academy in their capital to hit, say, Guilds light years before any other civ.
2.) the ToA is certainly not as useful as TGL, as the GPP is both smaller and mixed, but don't forget that the ToA can come far earlier than TGL, so the total GPP generated by the two wonders is actually closer than at first glance. Most civs will use most GP they generate for Golden Ages anyways, and for this goal it doesn't really matter what type of GPP you're generating.
3.) The ToA gives at least 200 extra trade mission income if the ToA was built in your capital. This is a quirk of how the trade mission formula works; for more details on GM trade missions see this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=410559
4.) +100% Trade Route income is pretty insignificant at first, but will eventually be worth around 8 or more commerce per turn, even without a cothon or the GLH. Eventually this little bonus will generate several hundreds of commerce over the wonder's lifetime by itself.
5.) The +1 Gold, +1 hammer from the priest is forgettable, but does eventually add up too. That priest will be worth at least a free hundred hammers and a free hundred gold over its lifetime.

So, the ToA is very situational. It won't be very good on your 7-player Torodial map in PB23, I think, but in big continental maps, like PB13 or PB18, for civs that want a shrine but wouldn't mind a GM due to easy intercontinental trade mission access, it can be a fantastic wonder I think.

edit: corrected point #3

[SevenSpirits]

Good points GJ, though with regard to your point 3, the ToA actually gives 200+ trade mission income if it's in the city you run the trade mission in. Trade mission is calculated based off the value of your capital as a trade route of the target city, which means that having a high-pop capital that's far enough away from the target city is good, and having trade route bonuses in the target city is also good.

[GermanJoey]

Good points GJ, though with regard to your point 3, the ToA actually gives 200+ trade mission income if it's in the city you run the trade mission in. Trade mission is calculated based off the value of your capital as a trade route of the target city, which means that having a high-pop capital that's far enough away from the target city is good, and having trade route bonuses in the target city is also good.

Oh, you're right. I knew the part you mentioned, but looks like I misunderstood my own link. Thanks for setting me straight.