Super Massive Enhanced Gameplay Mod

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah, national wonders is in GlobalDefinesAlt.

[Qgqqqqq]

Okay, I've looked at it again. I think you're right about mutual exclusivity being impossible to handle in xml (you might be able to handle it in python, though), but I do know how to handle this:

Okay, I've started trying stuff--my clone of the repository is here:
https://github.com/VincentBorchardt/Civ4...ameplayMod
I made a new harbor (with +50 health), and it overwrites the normal harbor right now, even though I have both harbors in the file. I can't figure out how to change the name at this point--the only time I think you did that was with the Kanone; where did you put that name change? I'll try some more later to see if I can get further along with stuff

Creating a new building is easy, its just copying and pasting. Changing the name is as simple as changing the type...which I see you've done.

Sorry, not quite sure from your posts - do you have an issue beyond the exclusivity? Somewhere along the line I lost track of what I was looking for

[Krill]

Exclusivity will need to be DLL code, creation of a new XML tag and then insertion into all of the building entries. Do not attempt, basically.

[Cheater Hater]

I didn't know how to do new buildings--and now I do

Maybe I should be trying to get some of the easier stuff done if I want to help--stuff like removing Mysticism from the starting techs of civs, changing some of the civics, etc. One of the more interesting changes I want to try is the anarchy changes, but I'm assuming removing anarchy entirely almost assuredly requires DLL work (unless I can find an XML place to make all the values 0, and that works--I'll look for that next).

Speaking of the anarchy changes, what's going on with Cristo Redentor? I know it was nerfed in normal RTR mod (for reasons I still can't understand), but right now it does almost nothing (maybe it makes the delay time between civics changes 6 turns instead of 12?). I assume you'd want to reinvent it (like you did with Statue of Zeus) instead of removing it, but I don't know what you'd want done with it.

[Krill]

The civ UB and UU can be done, as can the tech cost changes. That's actually a fairly time consuming process.

For Cristo, I was considering if 12 turns between civics swaps is actually enough and it needs upping to 18 turns, and the nCristo could perhaps drop it back down to 12.

[Cheater Hater]

I made my first actual changes--I removed Mysticism as a free tech from all the civs. Here's all my changes, since they're slightly different from what you said would be changes:

Code:

Arabia: Agri/Myst->Agri/Hunt
Aztec: Myst/Hunt->Wheel/Hunt
Byz: Fish/Myst->Fish/Agri
Celt: Hunt/Myst->Hunt/Fish
HRE: Myst/Hunt->Mine/Hunt
Inca: Agri/Myst->Wheel/Mine ***
India: Myst/Wheel->Fish/Wheel
Maya: Mine/Myst->Mine/Wheel
Spain: Fish/Myst->Fish/Wheel
Minor Civ: Removed Myst?

If we assume the all-caps civs are the civs that meant to change, I ended up changing some that weren't marked to be changed (Spain, Byz, whatever the "Minor Civ" is) and not changing other that were supposed to be changed (Rome, Ottoman, NA--that assumes Korea was supposed to always be the changed that happened prior). Also, Inca changed both techs--was that supposed to happen?

Do you want me to submit pull requests as I finish major parts, or just finish all I think I can do, then submit my pull request?

[Krill]

...I dunno. I haven't actually put any of this mod together for over a year now.

[Krill]

Update: I have reorganised the starting of the tech tree. I imagine everyone will hate it, but allow me to explain. Below is a picture of what it looks like.



The tech costs are altered as follows: The first rank, the starting techs (minus Myst which is not a starting tech), are cost 35. That's Fishing, Hunting, Agri, The Wheel, and Mining. The second row techs are cost 60. That's Archery, Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Masonry, plus Sailing and Bronze Working which don't look second row but that is because of the constraints of keeping the tech tree looking nice.

Mysticism is cost 50, Meditation cost 70, Polytheism cost 80. The rest of the tech tree is not touched for the purposes of this explanation.

Now, this mod is introducing Sevens Tech Cost Scaling system from ToW, which allows the tech costs to scale much more nicely over various map sizes. Essentially, with a small change to the palace (it makes 9 commerce, not 8), all of the start techs take 4 turns to research on every map size. Second row techs cost between 69-71 beakers on Monarch.

Each start tech leads to two second row techs, none of which have a mandatory prerequisite. At worst, every civ will have 3 second row techs open from T0, and one of them will be at a 1.4 modifier rather than 1.2 modifier.

Fishing will not be mandatory for seafood starts: work boats will be made to have no tech requirement, and are foodhammer units so a pier will therefore be available to build immediately after a work boat completes. Nor is Mining a one right choice. Slavery is moved to Archery, Chopping to Masonry, both of which are available from two separate techs and share no prerequisite techs. Mining is still necessary to reach BW, but it only opens up copper and axes (and spears with Hunting). So not like it can be ignored. Prior to this, Mining was essentially still a one right choice because it was the only way to chopping and whipping, which is what has precipitated this change. Agriculture links through to Pottery and AH, two prerequisites of Writing, and enable horse, camps, granaries and cottages.

Religion is available following Myst>Med or Poly routes as per status quo anti inflexionem. Cost 50>cost 70 should take no longer than 14 turns on a huge map,.

This means that starting techs are there purely as flavour and should not have any effect whatsoever on civ balance. So the civ balance can now be reconsidered with these changes and any changes made to make some of those more boring civs more enjoyable.

So...thoughts?

The changes shown in the picture created purely for demonstration purposes, any work on ADG mod by myself has not yet occurred.

[GermanJoey]

The changes look interesting but honestly, I think you've departed far enough from BTS (or even the current version of RtR) that I don't feel comfortable making speculative balance judgements. I'd really have to try out a few single player games to even get a feel for it all.

I'm interested in joining a pitboss test game (I'm completely soured on PBEM after PBEM59 though, so it'd have to be a pitboss for me) whenever you get the changes implemented.

[Cheater Hater]

Well, I think you got the "everyone will hate it" reaction down, at least as a gut reaction--I know I certainly was surprised at breaking up BW. Still, I have some concerns, mainly with the idea that "starting techs are just flavor", since every combo will have strengths and weaknesses, and a pecking order will emerge. Things I want to watch for:

• Why would I ever want Fishing as a starting tech? I guess if your best tile is a 2/0/2 seafood?
  
• If I'm Fishing/Hunting, I can go Warrior/Scout first, research Archery, grow to size 2, then whip the first Worker--how good is that? Remember, the revolt into Slavery doesn't cost an anarchy turn anymore.
  
• BW seems like a very, very bad tech now that it doesn't have its add-ons, since all it does is (hopefully) give Axes and Spears. In addition, now that everyone needs Archery for Slavery, the viability of early war is severely reduced. I feel like it needs something else--one thing that popped into my head is having mines only be +1 hammer to start and having the second hammer come at BW--nothing major, but it means you can't ignore BW until you need Metal Casting
  

I'm worried that this is yet another change based around Slavery warping the early game--maybe more stuff around it needs to change? Even with all the civics changes you've been doing (especially in this branch), the labor civics have been barely touched outside of the Slavery nerf and making Serfdom do something. Obviously Caste System is a meaningful alternative (even in BTS), but it can't really be moved up (unless you want to obsolete Creative, among other problems). Serfdom seems too powerful early as well, maybe even in its nerfed form. How much is Emancipation used? Maybe it could get a complete overhaul and move to one of the first couple techs--is that crazy?

(and on the coding side, is the prettiness of the tree part of the XML? I assume I could change arrow techs and the non-arrow prerequisites, but the tree itself seems hard)