[Spoilers PB23] Old Harry's attempt at civilizing AdrienIer

[Old Harry]

Um. Are you offering the guy whose chariot you just killed a free worker? Why wouldn't he take it? Let's just cross our fingers that he thinks a quiet border is possible...

Also, in the time it takes your four axes to get there I bet he gets some chariots in place. One spear will beat one chariot, perhaps two? But your western axe isnt protected and your spear might be about to die... have you got his power graph for us to guess how many chariots he has?

Also, also, casus beli is only needed if you have a populace to convince. Civ works better if you take on the battles that gain you stuff rather than getting into 'he pushed me too far'-type rage-wars.

[AdrienIer]

Dreylin is last in power (well I haven't met Grimace and don't have Elum's graphs yet but he's really low). If he attacks I'm cutting his roads to the city with the western axe. I've already seen 2 axes 1 chariot in this part of the world, maybe he can send one more chariot but that's it, he's got to have MP in his cities. Also from what I've seen he wants the gold desperately so he'll want to protect the worker mining it.
I'm working on his psychology here, he knows I must be pissed off by his plant so he knows I'm at least on the edge of attacking him. With his low power and my recent rise in that category I'm sure he's not very confident. He may want to delay the inevitable until he has more manpower. Plus as I said I'm having a galley built, so I'd say I'm more prepared for this war than he is. I think he's also not expecting so many axes, it's just bad luck for him that there aren't more on the other side.

[AdrienIer]

Dreylin didn't attack the worker. I now have an axe in sight, this turn is the turn where I'm afraid he may decide to attack the spear anyway.




Next turn I'm assuming he moves the axe and chariot east (let's say to the gold tile) and doesn't attack, I send the western axe south to cut his supplies, then southwest to the forest. That way he'll have a hard time dislodging me. In the east the axe moves to cover the spear and I show him my two axes. A good old trap. More units will come with every turn on my side while he'll have some trouble getting past the forested axe. Plus without the gold tile his city is a useless drain on his eco, so I will win this war of attrition. Now there are other possibilities, one is that he'll kill the spear next turn, if he's damaged enough I kill him with my axe, if not I regroup on the site 7 tile and I wait for reinforcements. I'll have a spear and axe at the cap next turn ready to go help. Also all the units he'll be spending to defend that useless (because no gold) city won't be at the southern stone city that I'll try to burn with the galley coming in next turn.

[AdrienIer]

Ok he came in better prepared than his power graphs indicated. He has one more axe than I had scouted so the attack is of. But the galley will be ready to amphibiously attack his stone city in 5 turns, with 2 axes in it. I hope it's going to be enough. Units are arriving from all over, which means I'm leaving the east empty, only 2 axes there to defend.




CH has been a good neighbor so far, he has a trapped warrior that could annoy me (this turn he saw an empty city 2 tiles from where he was and moved away from it, of course he didn't know I had an axeman right next to it that would have gladly taken the free exp if he had tried anything).

I admit that I underestimated Dreylin, who's team is not as green as some of the others here including myself. Overall this will delay the MoM and force me to double whip it most likely. Nothing I can do here, this Dreylin stuff may have more consequences than either of us thought if someone finishes the MoM around turn 100. But then even if I had retreated the worker it wouldn't have changed much, maybe a slightly faster mine but that's it.

[AdrienIer]

Actually I read that wrong, I didn't see the green text in the log, my western axe beat the chariot against all odds, which means that the city is currently empty, with an axe 3 tiles west of it and 2 axes on the forest. Basically even if he accepts the ceasefire I'm menacing his workers and city with my lone shock axe. So it's not really a disaster I'll just have to wait a few turns to attack, and he'll get the gold next turn. But still a not-so-bad outcome.

[Old Harry]

For any lurkers this is the situation:


This is pretty bad, but at least there is the silver lining of killing a chariot. Dreylin/Ipecac have two axes on top of the captured worker, three workers will finish their gold mine this turn and they have another axe on the x. They also are the team with the Oracle and now Colossus, which would explain why they don't have as many cities as you do...

A couple of questions:
- did they have two axes on the gold last turn? If not then there must be a road 1S of 7b, which means they *could* chariot your axe out of the fog.
- are you going to send your axe 1W to force them to defend the city, or are you giving up and heading back east?

MoM is currently at 335/450, you're putting 3*1.5 = 4 hpt into it, you have chops worth 16 and 30 hammers going in in the next three turns = 69 putting you on 412 hammers on t100. That's 38 hammers short - is that a 2-pop whip? You'll hit size 4 on t105 by which time you'll have 430 hammers anyway which is easily a 1-pop whip. So I'd recommend - this turn - switching from working the pig to a bare hill so that you're putting 6hpt in instead and you can 1-pop whip it on t100 or 101. Also don't finish the chop until you're sure you can complete the whip next turn - you could get that worker to put a turn into a mine instead.


A few random micro comments
- I'd work the cottage over the plains mine in the capital - you'll have extra happy very soon and you need commerce far more than hammers right now. Actually I'd change the spear for a worker - you only have 7 for 10 cities.
- Give Lob the pig so the MoM city can get the stone bonus. I presume you're going to switch to another build so you can grow the turn before the dye/gems are hooked?
- Maserus is looking good now - if you settled the jungle filler soon it could taket he corn and let you work cottages...
- Moai city is unhappy, it's going to be a few turns before dye is hooked so you really want to 2-pop whip something to slow growth. How long before Gems are hooked? Now I'm not all that keen on your plan to raze their stone city - firstly they get a turn's warning and the city is size 5 so they could whip something, second they have very mobile chariots which could reinforce the city as well. You *could* start a galley this turn, 2-pop whip next turn and overflow into the spear. Two loaded galleys might just have a chance of burning the city. Of course you'll need a settler to make sure they can't just replant as well.
- Mtub is looking good - a lighthouse then library here would make it a nice city
- Hluh (MoM) really should work a bare hill over the pig - I can change it if you aren't around to?
- Ing is nice, but I'd move the axe to be S-SE of the city so you can kill CH's warrior before he causes Tung trouble.
- I hate Kwam. Sorry.
- Tung is alright - there are two forests to chop into a Library after the Granary, for a quick border pop, then it becomes a passable cottage city

[AdrienIer]

The road west of their city looks like it's linked to the tile SE of it, and there was only one axe on the gold last turn to corroborate that evidence. I don't think they have another chariot up here, but anyway as you've noticed I'm sending my other axes east to get in the boat so next turn I'm sending the axe back east.
If my count is right a 2-pop whip is 37h (50/2=25 25*1.5=37.5), here's my new plan for the MoM :
T98 17/24f +5f 335/450h +4h
T99 22/24f +5f 339/450h +4h
T100 16/26f +8f (due to the 3rd tile being the newly pastored sheep) 343/450h +4+24h with the southern chop
T101 24/26f +8f 371/450h +3+45h (chop and work a hill anyway to keep the stone bonus)
T102 20/28f ** 419/450h double whip
So the delay is 2 turns only with 2 forests from the original plan unavailable.
I need a road from the dye plantation so the happiness will kick in on T102 only (lots of stuff happening that turn).

Now to your micro comments :
I'd work the cottage at the cap as well but I can only 1 turn the spear by working both mines and I need troops to fight Dreylin. It'll be used next turn. There's a worker coming from Maserus next turn, and I changed the Lobambus build to a worker while waiting for growth, worker issues are easily dealt with.

For now I'm avoiding settling cities with no immediate use, which means I'm keeping the settler in the south for the gems site and if I end up building a settler in the east it'll go to site 8 on the strategic border or on the wheat/gold site south of Kwam. No filler city until I have some kind of economy rolling.

You're absolutely right about the galley thing, I'll need to chose which units get in those galleys but overall it's probably best to delay the attack by a turn or two to get 2 galleys filled and ready.

Lighthouse and library are now queued in Mtub.

I couldn't find a quicker way to get the MoM than my sim using the pig, so no bare hill for now.

CH's warrior has been doing the friendliest moves possible for the past 5 turns, I'm having Alphabet soon (well kinda) so I'll OB him on the first turn possible. If he goes on the southern hill I'll intercept it but CH is my only friendly neighbor, I'm going to go to great lengths to avoid hostility between us.

No problem. It's not great but with some work it's going to be a hell of a cottage city. I see the argument for 1W or 1E, but I don't think it's absolutely terrible where it is.

The worker at Tung will first plantation the banana then chop. Then get the silk to trade it away. I seem to be the only one without Ivory, but IIRC someone has 2 so I'll try to trade for it.

[Old Harry]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to send you a quick note to say that ipecac and I would be more comfortable if you'd stick to the turn split (when there is one) in future.

Thanks,

Dreylin.

This is confusing, we're not at war again are we?

[AdrienIer]

What happened was that after your message I entered the game to give a detailed answer, and when logging in ipecac had just logged in too. I told him in the chat that I was just checking something and that I wouldn't even look at his territory (I even went as far as not changing the spearman build to an axeman in the cap because I didn't want to change anything military-wise during this simultaneous turn). Because it's only a ceasefire and we have an axe next to their territory we're de facto in a turn split. Also they've been going to great lengths to play after us at all times for the last week, I somehow understand them.

[GermanJoey]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to send you a quick note to say that ipecac and I would be more comfortable if you'd stick to the turn split (when there is one) in future.

Thanks,

Dreylin.

This is confusing, we're not at war again are we?

Hmmm, they worded that weird, so I'll try to clarify. According to what they're saying in their spoiler thread, they'd like you to not log in when its not your half of the timer because it makes them quite nervous. I tried to convince them that "look, but not touch" was generally considered OK, but they, somewhat ironically, brought up your posts from the "Pitboss Etiquette" thread as arguments to the contrary...