[SPOILERS] Retap is over and Retap is gone...

[retep]

Finally I see the start, thanks OH!

There is no reason to move the settler, I don't think anything in the fog can change my mind. So I think I'm indeed going to SIP and then decided where to move the scout, just like William said.

I agree with Ichabod that probably everyone got a 6f, 5f, 4f tile in his BFC maybe even the oasis too so people consider the religious path.

Anyway since I'm last in the snake pick all the "cool" options (Inca, Aztecs, Zulu, China) would be gone, either way I think I could get either IMP/FIN or IMP/CRE (which I think are Vicky and Cathy), if they are taken I could go for Hammurabi just for the heck of it.

I think that I could ignore the crabs for a while, this way I can avoid fishing, if I take Cathy then I can ignore Mysticism, this give me more freedom to chosse a civ with a good UB.
Or If I take Vicky maybe just the Oasis to go for an early religion to help with borders and happy issues.

Everything is still in the air, I'm going to make some simple sims just to get a feel about this start.

[Ichabod]

Religion for early border pops has fallen out of favor, in my eyes. It's just too unreliable, you never get the spreads you need, where and when you need them. It only works for the second city (if founded on it) and, in PB, you probably won't get it for the second city.

If creative, I like the idea of getting France, for loads of specialists with quick salons. Cathy of France seems really nice.

[WilliamLP]

(Preface: not saying you guys don't consider these things, I just like writing down thoughts.)

On synergy, I think some people don't think through what that means very much. It means the two things have to be more than their individual sum. E.g. in some sense Org + Sumeria is an anti-synergy because Org is saving you fewer hammers on a building you'll want (eventually) everywhere anyway. There's more to the discussion than that (making it strategically better to get them earlier), but this savings reduction is a force against it.

Controversial: Protective + Inca is not much of a synergy. You're going to build terraces everywhere anyway, with any leader. So Protective saves you the same number of hammers that it would with any other civ. So you get two good traits, but only the sum of them. (Well you do get the culture from Terrace a couple turns earlier, which could swing some micro plans in a small way, but this is not a large thing.)

Synergy is, e.g. when because of a trait a building goes from a "no" to a "maybe" or a "maybe" to a "yes". So, yeah, like the Salon with the new Observatory creative bonus. If you could swing Pyramids with this, nice. But still, Astro is a _long_ time away. And Musketeers are an awkward unit to use well with where they are on the tech tree, and the fact that they're this weird hybrid defensive / offensive unit inferior to a knight in most ways. But there aren't really that many game-changer UUs.

Japan's Pagoda is interesting now (+10% hammers observatory) but this still might be too small to matter.

Just reading the list, philosophical Russia looks interesting. Not a recommendation, it just looks interesting.

If going Cathy, I guess you have to think that you're getting enough out of the early game to make up for both your bonuses falling off a lot once land grabbing is over.

[WilliamLP]

Hmm, 4 picks down, all Civ picks. I guess leader balance is considered pretty good? At this point I have a hard time seeing why anyone wouldn't pick Inca, unless they're not a try-hard powergamer.

And, man HaK, learn to figure stuff out for yourself! This isn't the place for you if you need to be spoon fed, trust me.

[retep]

Nobody is picking Inca! Commodore will take it, I'm sure of it.

In other news I have been thinking some more about this game and I have come with this as a pick:

Joao of Sumeria or Joao of Aztecs. Strong early game and midgame, which is pretty much all I need to win.
Cheap settlers, workers, workboats, markets, grocers, Custom house and Courthouse.

Ideally a civ like germany have the best starting techs for my start, but sadly that is all it has. I value very higly the discount on the CH. I would take Aztecsno doubt if it wasn't because his starting techs are worse than Sumeria for this particular opening.

Not taking ORG or FIN is a hard choice but in PB21 I learn how to manage a strong economy without any of those.

[Ichabod]

Why try to win? Why not Boudicca of celts/mongols for ultimate self-destructing fun?



Well, you are assured to get your pick or Inca, so that's good news.

By the way, João of Inca would be really beautiful, because that's the closest to Brazil and Peru we can get on Civ 4. And how could we fit Will on the picks too, I wonder. You are from Canada, right, Will?

Seriously, though, I like the idea of Courthouse UB. They really seem to shine in big PB games, because long term investments seem to pay more in such games. PBEMs are way easier to capitalize on a strong midgame/a handful of first to bonuses in sucession. Given enough time, the EP and commerce advantage from courthouses make a big difference, so you just got to make that the initial investment isn't so heavy.

[Ichabod]

How fast can we get Stonehenge with João of Aztecs?

[WilliamLP]

You are from Canada, right, Will?

Yes, I live in Toronto. And, wow, so many fun combos can be had here, for so many different directions. Heck, I'd even be tempted to take a stab at recreating the PB12 romp with Darius of Sumeria here! You almost can't go wrong getting to pick the leader / civ combo with 100% certainty here, there's a lot of interesting aspects about many choices. I'm more about fun and trying unique strategies than powergaming.

I wouldn't pick Hammarabai though: because AGG city maintenance bonus multiplies, it means that the bonuses for AGG and courthouses don't combine so well. You get -25% city maintenance for AGG, but when you build a courthouse, you only get -62.5% for the city, because the -25% multiplies and doesn't add. So you're really only getting -37.5% of a courthouse value, so there's a little bit of anti-synergy going on there.

Edit: and yeah, Joao would be fun, see the last PB game TBS won with him. If you're going to focus on early game, well, just pick the combo that will dominate it, and the rest will flow from there, right?

Another edit: I really would be tempted to pick Boudica here to go for crazy and unique promotion combat tricks. (Commando, Mobility, G2, etc.) But this is the part of me that wants to have fun, more than the part that wants to pick the objectively best combo to win.

[WilliamLP]

So the plan is to spread out like a virus and avoid crashing the econ with cheap SA's + a few markets? Well alright then! I guess you have something in mind to make picking Myst not a waste, like min-maxing a fast Stonehenge as per Ichabod's post?

Any use for the Jaguar at all?

[Ichabod]

Retep, enlighten us with your plans and wisdom, please.