I'm kidding about the barbs, mostly. It's definitely not needed. I played through part of a test SMEG game on the map last night, it got crowded quickly enough that barbs won't really matter all that much, I don't think. I played the Carthage start and 100% neon pink dotted the Ottomans, leaving them room for only 4 (AI) cities. I think a human wouldn't let that happen so easily but if there's anything you can do to improve the lot of the Ottomans I think it will only be good for the game. It's just that the geography in that area punishes Ottomans a lot more if they got boxed in (since they have no backlines) than if they, for example, boxed in Carthage. Carthage can go west and consume a lot of the Celt area if necessary. Anyway, that's some quick observations from the Carthage point of view since that was mostly what I was focused on. I enjoyed the shape of the map, I think you've set up a good battlefield.
Played: Pitboss 18 - Kublai Khan of Germany Somalia | Pitboss 11 - De Gaulle of Byzantium | Pitboss 8 - Churchill of Portugal | PB7 - Mao of Native America | PBEM29 Greens - Mao of Babylon
Yeah, I don't think that the sea works too well as a back line, unfortunately. I can offer some specific relocation suggestions later tonight, if you wish. I am currently away from the computer.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Thanks for the help guys. In the end I changed the layout of the islands so Zulu will contest with HRE, giving Ottomans more chance to expand over the water into what Xenu's map has marked as HRE territory. I also added more land for Celtia. And I unsettled the civs that had settled already .
I don't think I can go much further in the time I have and without fundamentally changing my vision for this map (ie testing the balance between expanding over water and into what you'd consider your backlines). I think the remaining imbalance is smaller than the difference in player skills anyway, so I'm going to send this version to Cal.
(March 7th, 2015, 16:50)Merovech Wrote: Yeah, I don't think that the sea works too well as a back line, unfortunately. I can offer some specific relocation suggestions later tonight, if you wish. I am currently away from the computer.
(March 7th, 2015, 18:09)Old Harry Wrote: I don't think I can go much further in the time I have and without fundamentally changing my vision for this map (ie testing the balance between expanding over water and into what you'd consider your backlines). I think the remaining imbalance is smaller than the difference in player skills anyway, so I'm going to send this version to Cal.
Mero, you are surely correct when you raise the balance issue reg why some players kind of have a backline in the starting continent while others need to cross the sea to get their share of land. However, the situation surely isn't as grim for those players as novice's tool indicates.
I think some players will struggle with the situation, but some will be able to establish a solid border despite having their core on two separate continents. In geopolitical sense I guess I would prefer HAK's land to Borsche's, but possibly still take Borsche's before central locations (Donovan, Joey, Grimace). That being said someone (as always) will get screwed because of everyone pushing towards him, but I feel that some players who are required to expand to islands other continents for their land will manage a competitive position.
Consequently, I feel that this layout at the same time has some potential and leaves room for actual performance to matter. (Neighbour luck being always the inevitable source of imbalance) My comments are based on very light overview so don't make me eat my words too bad if this ends up a total catastrophe. OH,
(March 9th, 2015, 13:11)Krill Wrote: Can anyone here make any sense of HAK or Donovan's threads?
Care to elaborate? Confusing trait/civ/pairing analyses? I guess the style is a bit like spamming first impressions in a chat or brainstorming session. It can be pretty entertaining, but if you're looking for input reg civ/trait balance in Mod it ain't thaaat easy!
(March 7th, 2015, 18:09)Old Harry Wrote: I think the remaining imbalance is smaller than the difference in player skills anyway
Why does that matter at all? We are not trying and should not try to control for player skill. The difference in player skills, and in between decisions from players ostentatiously at the same levels, makes the games tick.
I look forward to being wrong about sea-separated back lines, as they will add to variety for sure if they can be balanced.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(March 16th, 2015, 18:51)Merovech Wrote: Why does that matter at all? We are not trying and should not try to control for player skill. The difference in player skills, and in between decisions from players ostentatiously at the same levels, makes the games tick.
Old Harry's not talking about compensating for player skill. He's talking about drawing a finish line for 'good enough' and delivering the map. You can keep polishing forever if you let yourself. And the map will probably get better as a result of your efforts.
Just...not enough better to actually matter, once other variation is larger.
(March 16th, 2015, 18:51)Merovech Wrote: Why does that matter at all? We are not trying and should not try to control for player skill. The difference in player skills, and in between decisions from players ostentatiously at the same levels, makes the games tick.
Old Harry's not talking about compensating for player skill. He's talking about drawing a finish line for 'good enough' and delivering the map. You can keep polishing forever if you let yourself. And the map will probably get better as a result of your efforts.
Just...not enough better to actually matter, once other variation is larger.
I was trying to figure out how to say exactly this. I guess if I'd seen the output from novice's tool a week earlier I'd have been able to do a bit more to balance things, but I didn't have any more time by that point.
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potential and leaves room for actual performance to matter. (Neighbour luck being always the inevitable source of imbalance) My comments are based on very light overview so don't make me eat my words too bad if this ends up a total catastrophe. OH, 
I was trying to figure out how to say exactly this. I guess if I'd seen the output from novice's tool a week earlier I'd have been able to do a bit more to balance things, but I didn't have any more time by that point.