Khan Rides Forth <SPOILERS>

[Khan]

I think, with technologies costing more than quick speed and for fear of missing worker turns, we need the following techs as soon as possible:

Agriculture
Hunting
Mining
Bronze Working

I think The Wheel is important to, but not as important as the above and we should rule out the civs which include this, despite that being most of the good ones...

The two food technologies being the highest priority so, therefore, I believe we should pick one of the following civilizations:

China: Mining + Agriculture
Ethiopia: Hunting + Mining
Germany: Hunting + Mining
Khmer: Hunting + Mining
Persia: Agriculture + Hunting
Russia: Hunting + Mining
Zulu: Agriculture + Hunting

Pindicator: I don't want to make any massive sweeping decision here without your input if possible and i've already whittled the list down significantly to get to this point. That said, I have some time so I will continue to give my initial thoughts, but please understand that I am very open to persuasion and this is more my musings than a definitive decision.

If we choose anything other than China, we can almost certainly go leader first. That's a positive for the others and will probably be enough to dissuade me from this option. Germany and Russia can be ruled out as being worse than Khmer in every way. I would then also rule Khmer as there are no guarantees we will have ivory and the Baray is bad because the aqueduct is bad.

That leaves us with Ethiopia, Persia and Zulu. Persia wins points because the flag suits my taste. A real tangible benefit. Otherwise, Persia is pretty bland. Zulu is certainly interesting. I think I would be happy with any of these although I acknowledge Zulu or Ethiopia as being stronger. Ethiopia maybe slightly edges it because maintenance is likely not an issue for quite some time. I do like the idea of a chariot/impi invading army but that is likely a pipe dream that will never come to fruition.

[Khan]

Summary of my ramblings:

I think my current choices are out of:

Catherine, Suryavaraman, Joao or Victoria
of Ethiopia, Zulu or Persia

Considering how unrestricted our choices are, these are probably really stupid but it would be nice to go with a little bit of a curve ball. If the others think our choices are rubbish then hopefully they underestimate us. More likely, they'll think they are rubbish because they are rubbish and, as such, by choosing them we've taken the first steps towards confirming the thread title and propping up near the bottom of the score board.

Of the above, I would be reluctant to match Catherine or Sury with Ethiopia.

[pindicator]

Difficulty first as this is simple, Organised is worse as maintenance is less of an issue. Conversely, expansion is easier and therefore imperialistic is buffed. I'm not sure it's buffed enough for us to consider it. What do you think Pindicator? If we want to expand as quickly as possible, the best choices in my view are Suryavaraman, Joao or Catherine. They both give two nice early game traits. Willem and Pacal are banned so if we want a happy medium with one expansion trait and one long term trait then we are looking at Victoria or Augustus.

I am, perhaps worryingly, rather tempted by Catherine here but would that leave us too vulnerable in the later game with no 'real' traits? There is also the consideration that if we intentionally get off to an explosive start (with no end game), we put ourselves forward on the demographics as a target and then can't back it up.

Huayna Capac is obviously still really strong as I find it unlikely others will take industrious once he's picked but I don't expect he'll still be available to us. There is also part of my brain saying pick financial or you'll just regret it. Fun choices!

Game speed. Now this opens up a whole new can of worms. As well as making the early turns torturous, this has another big influence in that units are relevant for longer. Praetorians move one tile regardless of game speed. Strong unique units will be even better than before. Heck, it's entirely possible that praetorian, war chariot or cataphract rushes might even be the right answer here. My nervousness comes from the fact it's a fairly obvious all-in play. Once you pick the civ, people are already nervous. Egypt maybe masks that a bit because they have strong techs and are a popular pick regardless. Picking Egypt initially and Catherine on the way back up would certainly be a novel way of playing the game. Is it an effective way to win the game? Probably not. A lot would depend on the map which we can't determine beforehand.

Sumeria has a universally nice unique building which, if we were going down some of the more religious techs anyway, is a good boost. Again though, how necessary will this be on Prince. The alternative is to just pick a civilization based on the techs we need at the start which is a strong, albeit boring, play. Have you any thoughts on civilizations you would consider in this instance?

I think my last win in a pbem came from playing Victoria of Sumeria... But I wouldn't call that the best combination possible.

In all seriousness, they're all good choices. I think the starting techs are the biggest factor for picking a civ and you've listed those out already. I will add this: every game I play as zulu ends up in crazy stuff happening. Hopefully you're spared some of that because I do think they're a very strong civ, and one of the few i'd consider picking an AGG leader to pair with in BtS.

FIN is obviously the best trait to grab but I dont think you have to take it if you don't want to use it. It's probably the most forgiving trait: you can sleepwalk and use it well because the bonus is so simple to activate.

But some of our strongest players at RB would tell you they think EXP is stronger. Getting your first worker out 2 turns earlier isn't just the ability to start improving terrain 2 turns faster; you're also getting 6 extra food over your non-EXP opponents and starting your growth curve earlier. Cheap granaries are it's real power. The more you grow the more tiles you work, and working more improved tiles is how you gain advantages over other teams.

Now it may be Prince but ORG will still give you a noticeable difference just because we're playing a torus.

I think if you pick a leader with one of FIN or EXP you could pair that with anything else that sounds fun and be fine. Even if you want Cathy that would be workable, we just need to leverage her strengths when it comes to actually planning our strategy.

I personally like adding a bit of synergy to my pick, but that is entirely a personal thing and not something you have to do. For example, I might pair Shaka with Zulu here and try to use combat 1 impi to terrorize neighbors while I go on a land grab. Or Joao/Cathy/Sury of Sumeria and go for the landgrab with ziggurats to pull you out of the economic hole that all the early expansion is going to put you in. Similarly Victoria makes a solid leader with any civ as her traits address both expansion and getting out of that economic hole.

I feel like I'm babbling on a bit. I'm going to drove out to visit my parents soon; I'll try to collect my thoughts some more. If you haven't already post what combinations you think would be fun to play. Don't worry about feasible right now, just what seems interesting to you. Our if there's a particular strategy in mind you want to try. These games take months to play and staying engaged is just as important as any other strategy decision.

[pindicator]

That leaves us with Ethiopia, Persia and Zulu. Persia wins points because the flag suits my taste. A real tangible benefit. Otherwise, Persia is pretty bland. Zulu is certainly interesting. I think I would be happy with any of these although I acknowledge Zulu or Ethiopia as being stronger. Ethiopia maybe slightly edges it because maintenance is likely not an issue for quite some time. I do like the idea of a chariot/impi invading army but that is likely a pipe dream that will never come to fruition.

This is a very good post. But I would also add The Wheel to your tech list. Agri/Wheel civs are recognized as being very strong starting techs. Because of the deer you can probably also get away with Hunting/Wheel if there's a civ that interests you there (Mongolia). I wouldn't pick a civ with Wheel/anything else unless there's a very specific reason for it, like if you really want to play with Cataphracts for instance.

[pindicator]

Summary of my ramblings:

I think my current choices are out of:

Catherine, Suryavaraman, Joao or Victoria
of Ethiopia, Zulu or Persia

Of the above, I would be reluctant to match Catherine or Sury with Ethiopia.

Any of these combinations would be very strong. I'm not sure why you're reluctant to match Sury or Catherine with Ethiopia though -- can you explain?

[Khan]

I think my last win in a pbem came from playing Victoria of Sumeria... But I wouldn't call that the best combination possible.

In all seriousness, they're all good choices. I think the starting techs are the biggest factor for picking a civ and you've listed those out already. I will add this: every game I play as zulu ends up in crazy stuff happening. Hopefully you're spared some of that because I do think they're a very strong civ, and one of the few i'd consider picking an AGG leader to pair with in BtS.

FIN is obviously the best trait to grab but I dont think you have to take it if you don't want to use it. It's probably the most forgiving trait: you can sleepwalk and use it well because the bonus is so simple to activate.

Well, I currently think Huayna is the strongest but I just can't see him being available so I won't allow myself to daydream about it!

But some of our strongest players at RB would tell you they think EXP is stronger. Getting your first worker out 2 turns earlier isn't just the ability to start improving terrain 2 turns faster; you're also getting 6 extra food over your non-EXP opponents and starting your growth curve earlier. Cheap granaries are it's real power. The more you grow the more tiles you work, and working more improved tiles is how you gain advantages over other teams.

Our deer is forested for a 3f 1h tile and we have a plains hill plant so is it not impossible to get it faster than 10 turns even with expansive? Which I think is actually enough reason to rule it out. Whilst granaries are a big deal, those extra early turns are decisive. Without them, I think we have stronger options.

Now it may be Prince but ORG will still give you a noticeable difference just because we're playing a torus.

What do you mean by torus? I saw that Commodore quoted it as the map script so I assume it is a custom script. How does it differ in terms of affecting costs/maintenance?

I feel like I'm babbling on a bit. I'm going to drove out to visit my parents soon; I'll try to collect my thoughts some more. If you haven't already post what combinations you think would be fun to play. Don't worry about feasible right now, just what seems interesting to you. Our if there's a particular strategy in mind you want to try. These games take months to play and staying engaged is just as important as any other strategy decision.

Sound advice, thank you. Have a safe trip and I appreciate your input. I think we have a good general direction now, it's just finalising exactly which route we'll take to get there.

[Khan]

I would also add The Wheel to your tech list. Agri/Wheel civs are recognized as being very strong starting techs. Because of the deer you can probably also get away with Hunting/Wheel if there's a civ that interests you there (Mongolia). I wouldn't pick a civ with Wheel/anything else unless there's a very specific reason for it, like if you really want to play with Cataphracts for instance.

My only justification for discounting The Wheel as a technology to start with is the fact we're on normal speed. I worry that the workers will run out of things to do. For example, if we start with agriculture and the wheel. We would tech hunting first obviously, but then what? Mining and Bronze Working will take too long so the worker is stuck roading tiles which, whilst not negligible just seems suboptimal. Maybe I am undervaluing roads at this early stage though. When I first started playing I used to prioritise roads so much (like an AI!) and when I realised my error, I went so far the other way that I am not sure I have settled on a happy middle ground just yet.

[Khan]

Any of these combinations would be very strong. I'm not sure why you're reluctant to match Sury or Catherine with Ethiopia though -- can you explain?

Well, Ethiopia's Oromo is decent, but their building is a monument and building monuments whilst having creative trait is upsetting. I actually think both of their unique features have a potential for use so I'm not really against them as such. Victoria of Ethiopia has a certain ring to it.

Part of me still wants Persia but when I question myself why all I've really got is that it's a bit different, I like the flag and I like the colour which are, clearly, all brilliant reasons.

[pindicator]

Our deer is forested for a 3f 1h tile and we have a plains hill plant so is it not impossible to get it faster than 10 turns even with expansive? Which I think is actually enough reason to rule it out. Whilst granaries are a big deal, those extra early turns are decisive. Without them, I think we have stronger options.

That's true, it is. So EXP won't speed up the first worker at all. And cheap granaries are big, but if you want to emphasize other stuff we can work towards those strengths instead.

What do you mean by torus? I saw that Commodore quoted it as the map script so I assume it is a custom script. How does it differ in terms of affecting costs/maintenance?

The map wraps North-South as well as East-West. Like the Fantasy mapscript if you've ever messed around with that one. But this impacts maintenance considerably because the way Civ IV calculates city-distance maintenance is a proportion of the farthest distance two cities can be on the map. In a flat map with no wrap in any direction you'll have the cheapest maintenance because the farthest distance is from the upper left corner to the lower right. If it's a E-W wrap only, then the longest distance becomes from the upper left corner to the lower center. And then if it's a torus, where the map also wraps N-S, then the longest distance is from the upper left to the dead center of the map.

So the torus has the shortest "longest distance" of any map style with the same points. And because distance cost is based as a proportion of the distance of the city to your capital to the longest distance possible on the map, it will cost more on a torus than on a E-W wrap map, and a lot more than on a flat map.

I will try to find the post that explains this a lot better.

[pindicator]

My only justification for discounting The Wheel as a technology to start with is the fact we're on normal speed. I worry that the workers will run out of things to do. For example, if we start with agriculture and the wheel. We would tech hunting first obviously, but then what? Mining and Bronze Working will take too long so the worker is stuck roading tiles which, whilst not negligible just seems suboptimal. Maybe I am undervaluing roads at this early stage though. When I first started playing I used to prioritise roads so much (like an AI!) and when I realised my error, I went so far the other way that I am not sure I have settled on a happy middle ground just yet.

This is where simulating out the first 30 turns or so really lets you get an idea of just what you can do. Honestly, I would guess that as long as you have 1 food tech then you're okay. But I'd have to simulate it myself to know for sure

Any of these combinations would be very strong. I'm not sure why you're reluctant to match Sury or Catherine with Ethiopia though -- can you explain?

Well, Ethiopia's Oromo is decent, but their building is a monument and building monuments whilst having creative trait is upsetting. I actually think both of their unique features have a potential for use so I'm not really against them as such. Victoria of Ethiopia has a certain ring to it.

Part of me still wants Persia but when I question myself why all I've really got is that it's a bit different, I like the flag and I like the colour which are, clearly, all brilliant reasons.

Creative will still save you the 30 hammers it costs to build the Stele. And really the +25% culture isn't going to show you much returns unless you want to try and use it for a Culture Win, but even then in MP you have to go later in the tech tree than SP -- plus CVs are highly dubious to pull off anyway.. Ethiopia is mostly good for the Oromo Warrior.

Persia can be good. The Apothecary is meh since health usually isn't the thing limiting growth in cities, but the Immortal can be really strong in the early game.