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TheHumanHydra Loses His Head(s) [Spoilers]

@ipecac: I apologize, I apparently forgot to respond to your last post. Perhaps I am playing suboptimally, but unfortunately I've been distracted by war preparations and failed to start the Moai anywhere. Perhaps a post-war project.

On turn 90, Mardoc and Miguelitos started simultaneous Golden Ages. Miguelitos switched to Bureaucracy, Caste System, and Organized Religion. Mardoc switched to Hereditary Rule and Organized Religion. Both adopted a religion. Miguelitos has been building some Numidian Cavalry and now a catapult. Mardoc is saving gold on Guilds, and I can't tell what anyone else may be researching. Everyone's power is skyrocketing, but I know for myself that has mostly been population, etc., so it's difficult to tell if anyone is actually preparing an attack. The atmosphere is a little tense, like a storm is gathering and will soon break - grey clouds of iron horsemen showering blood.

At the end of turn 92 I teched Guilds. Over the past number of turns I've been whipping forges and barracks. Unfortunately Guilds came too soon for me to set up any nifty whip tricks with horse archers queue-upgrading to knights, but I've set up a number of knight whips to begin next turn. Unfortunately I have not had time to pre-build any auxiliary forces, either - but one lone Cho-Ko-Nu. I have twelve cities I can double-whip at least twice for knights; perhaps I can try and overflow from some of these to complete Cho-Ko-Nus in some of the cities closest to the eventual front. I will have five cities with both barracks and stables, and two more with just barracks, so I will have about an even mixture of trained and untrained units. At this point, I thought simply setting up to whip knights in the barracks-less cities would produce a better return than setting up to whip barracks first, for time reasons. Here's a look at my cities the past two turns so you can see exactly what I've been building as Guilds comes in:







And the traditional overview shots, to put that into context:







As you can see, I'm saving gold on Meditation, thinking of perhaps a run to Nationalism for the Taj Mahal Golden Age (I have marble), followed by perhaps the Music Great Artist if it's still there and Military Tradition for Cuirassiers (this requires Gunpowder too), or a run on Liberalism, since I would have Philosophy in hand. Or I could take a run straight at Liberalism. Or something else - take Gunpowder for defence, or Construction - Engineering for defence and movement. I also have five chariots I could upgrade to knights in time for the projected attack, at 140 gold a piece (I'm making 170 gpt at 0% right now, as you can see, though this will decline as I whip). I would appreciate everyone's thoughts on this - in fact I'm kicking myself I was so focused on the immediate goal I failed to take this into account before now.

Now, as for the larger question that must be on everyone's minds - if we've slid so comfortably into the path of war, who is the target? And how do we defend ourselves from the others, at least one of which (Mardoc) is also gearing up for a heavy-handed offensive. My fear is attacking and being taken in flank by one or two other opponents. Now, Mardoc only really directly borders me and Alhazard. Against me he might bear a grudge, though he can see I'm wary. Into Alhazard's territory he holds a salient, and would be able to take two cities out of the fog the first turn of war with two-movers. Is it too much to hope he will attack Alhazard instead of me? In any case, I should have city visibility on Mardoc in a few turns' time, which will hopefully provide warning of an impending attack.

Migeulitos is my preferred target. As Old Harry and I discussed in a chat some time ago, he is the most vulnerable to attack from my angle, as we share a very wide border without much depth beyond, allowing me to penetrate 'deeply' and threaten/fork multiple cities early on. Old Harry suggested an attack through Hulk in the centre, forking Barrow and the true prize, TheOtherSide, turn one of war. Kiwi to the east could also be hit turn one out of the fog, while Emerald could be attacked by galley-borne troops (or threatened by other forces passing through Hulk), though the galleys would be visible in Misericordia the turn before the attack (sadly I can't win cultural control of the tiles necessary to shroud this deployment, nor to hit TheOtherSide from the sea the first turn of war).

Unfortunately, visibility is a big issue. While open borders have been a great boon for my peace of mind, next to Numidian Cavalry- and War Chariot-wielding neighbours, both Migeulitos and Alhazard have warriors (and now, it seems, Miguelitos a chariot) running through my lands, whose movements I can't predict and who almost certainly would detect any concentration for attack - the necessary staging-tiles don't look much like zone-defence tiles. I can delay concentration to the last minute, but they will both assuredly see my masses of knights and respond appropriately, while I cannot hide the concentration - and thus the target - the turn at least before the attack. But closing borders would look to me just as sketchy, and since I would have to close them with both opponents to produce any sort of deception, would severely damage my economy (I do not have open borders with Mardoc - I've been liking the thought of the information advantage I should have over him with city visibility, but perhaps I should offer to preserve my economy?).

So: how do I achieve any sort of surprise? Also, what do you guys think of the target selection? I could go for Alhazard, but we have a choke-point border and thus the attack would develop much more slowly (since I would be attacking down the length of his empire), and his lands would be difficult to hold after. Or I could attack Mardoc, and defend on my perimeter, but he at least I know will have strong forces, since I know he is teching Guilds - unless I attack him very recklessly as soon as physically possible (as opposed to fully ready). Against him I could at least generate some measure of surprise - but he also has less cities for the taking. What do you guys think?

In conclusion, the sum total of my efforts to date:




And the demographics, as usual (before ending turn):




The crop yield margin has narrowed a bit since I started whipping again. 100% GNP appears to be competitive with Miguelitos' and Mardoc's Golden Age GNPs, unless they have just been saving gold. Despite his mere nine cities, Mardoc has regained a competitive stature. In fact, it might be Alhazard who is slipping a little - though not by much, not at this point. As for me, I just hope I don't get dogpiled.

Thanks for reading. smile
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(March 31st, 2015, 20:12)TheHumanHydra Wrote: @ipecac: I apologize, I apparently forgot to respond to your last post.
That's all right .

Quote:Perhaps I am playing suboptimally, but unfortunately I've been distracted by war preparations and failed to start the Moai anywhere. Perhaps a post-war project.
Pfft, who builds infrastructure? War, war! dancing

Quote:So: how do I achieve any sort of surprise?
Probably you need to do a feint, with the details depending on the precise location of the explorers within your borders and project future movements based on past history.

Maybe something like stack at Sanctuary Dome, and road like you've entered Mardoc territory but instead move to Nineveh Rising (or 1-2E of that) and land next to Byblos next turn).
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(April 1st, 2015, 06:10)ipecac Wrote: Maybe something like stack at Sanctuary Dome, and road like you've entered Mardoc territory but instead move to Nineveh Rising (or 1-2E of that) and land next to Byblos next turn).

Yeah, I can try and fiddle out something like that, but it won't be easy. I may have to accept one to two turns' warning of an attack in any case. pimp frown

Some more screenshots, so you can see the terrain more clearly, as well as the builds screen as the first round of knights is whipped, and the typical overview and demos shots:

Miguelitos, the most promising to attack from a tactical perspective:




Alhazard, whose land would be difficult to defend if taken; vulnerable to Mardoc and Miguelitos:




Mardoc, the old enemy, who will finish Guilds next turn, and on whom I hope to have city visibility a turn or two after:




Question: will city visibility light up his undiscovered cities, or do you have to have already explored them to gain visibility from them?

I am deeply concerned about what Mardoc may plan to do. He is safe from Migeulitos. Alhazard is vulnerable to him, but he may wish to combat me, his old enemy and possibly apparent game leader. I have strong garrisons in the border cities, but even strong garrisons do not hold against knights and catapults, and sadly I have to defend two fronts literally 180 degrees across the globe from each other against him. I think the best thing that could happen is if he chose to attack Alhazard, thinking to recover from his behind-in-city-count position against a militarily weaker opponent, thereby tying down both my other opponents for an attack on Miguelitos unimpeded. I think the worst thing that could happen is if he chose to attack me, forcing me into a profitless war at the exact time sacrifices are being made and advantages could be gained that could be decisive for the outcome of the game, my other opponents developing past me or piling on.

So the question remains: what do I do in this strategic situation? I need to attack someone, but whom, and should I wait for Mardoc (delaying my own action), for safety's sake?

Overview:







Cities summary:




Demographics:




Heh, if there's one thing I know how to do in this game, it's to slaughter my people and crash their economy to get the latest offensive tech into the field (eventual misuse rate above 50%). Buyer's remorse? A little bit, yeah, already. pimp
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I like Ipecac's suggestion for a diversion - accepting a turn or two of tip-off seems like the best you can do here.

City visibility will uncover tiles that a unit in that city could see, but won't uncover cities you haven't already got sight of. You'd need to get a spy into Mardoc's land for that.

What have you got defending Sanctuary Dome and Trial By Fire? If they fall how does that leave your border with Mardoc? In the west your two on-hill cities aren't forkable, but in the east Ninevah is a bit vulnerable. Four Galleys in the area makes me think TBF could be a target, but Mardoc could send a much bigger stack after Sanctuary Dome - its good news that you'll have visibility on his cities in that area nod.

I'd keep a few hammers in defensive builds in all those border cities (LB and Cat) for emergency whipping if needed, then concentrate on your main objective. As long as you are streaming units to the Miguelito front then you may be able to react to Mardoc attacking and only lose one or two cities while you gain more vs Miguelito. Also I'd guess Miguelito will accept peace and let you counter attack if Mardoc does try to hit you...
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Quote: I need to attack someone, but whom, and should I wait for Mardoc
I've thought more and IMO you don't really need to attack as you have tech lead and a slight lead on land. If you can't get a sufficient large force in time before others get knights in large numbers too then it may be better not to risk being the first to attack, as the Guilds-romp strategy requires (relatively) secure borders, instead you might want to wait for for an opening. But if you can then go for it, of course.

Quote:Construction - Engineering for defence and movement.
Engineering will be great for both offence and defence, especially for maneuvering from one flank to another to take advantage of openings as above. Though Construction will be pretty useless except as a pre-requisite.
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Thanks for the input, guys. Addressing your comments -

(April 2nd, 2015, 04:33)Old Harry Wrote: I like Ipecac's suggestion for a diversion - accepting a turn or two of tip-off seems like the best you can do here.

Good to know I don't have the pressure for a perfect surprise. I think I can manage a one-turn warning for anyone I might attack (maybe zero-turn for Alhazard or Mardoc, but the stack would spend one turn in their territory before being able to attack). I'm building my stack on the highlighted tile, which is a zone defence tile I've been using sometimes anyway, but from which my two-movers could stage against any given opponent in one turn:




Old Harry Wrote:City visibility will uncover tiles that a unit in that city could see, but won't uncover cities you haven't already got sight of. You'd need to get a spy into Mardoc's land for that.

Good to know; thanks. I got visibility on my first city of Mardoc's this turn, Faraday, to my east (his west). Nothing threatening yet - the same two spear, two vulture garrison that's been in place for several turns, plus a catapult apparently just produced moving northeast.

Old Harry Wrote:What have you got defending Sanctuary Dome and Trial By Fire? If they fall how does that leave your border with Mardoc? In the west your two on-hill cities aren't forkable, but in the east Ninevah is a bit vulnerable. Four Galleys in the area makes me think TBF could be a target, but Mardoc could send a much bigger stack after Sanctuary Dome - its good news that you'll have visibility on his cities in that area nod.

I'd keep a few hammers in defensive builds in all those border cities (LB and Cat) for emergency whipping if needed, then concentrate on your main objective. As long as you are streaming units to the Miguelito front then you may be able to react to Mardoc attacking and only lose one or two cities while you gain more vs Miguelito. Also I'd guess Miguelito will accept peace and let you counter attack if Mardoc does try to hit you...

Trial By Fire (in the west) has three C1 axes and two spears, one C1, and has walls up. It also built a mace around the time our peace expired, which I was going to bring along with any attacking stack, but which could return to it. It has hammers into a cho-ko-nu, which would seem to fulfill both the -bow and catapult roles you mentioned, OH. tongue (But correct me if the longbow is significantly better.)

Sanctuary Dome (in the east) has two blank axes and three spears, one C1, and also has walls up. It doesn't have hammers into anything yet (I just whipped its forge, to give you an idea of its progress), but I can make that a priority (I think it's whipping a knight for me first, though). The main mass of my army, divided between the tile noted above and the hill 2SE of there, is between one and two turns away from it - for now, of course.

The four galleys around Dalton/Trial By Fire have been there, in those positions, since we made peace, so I don't feel too threatened by them, though of course they could have fresh units put in them at any time. Actually, they finally moved this turn, the turn Mardoc finished Guilds; I suspect he will be using them to ferry his new knights to the mainland, as I am with mine (look right):




We'll come back to this screenshot later; I have a thought related to it.

ipecac Wrote:Engineering will be great for both offence and defence, especially for maneuvering from one flank to another to take advantage of openings as above. Though Construction will be pretty useless except as a pre-requisite.

I feel so paranoid that this might be my choice. As a note, Gunpowder costs about the same as Construction - Engineering (and is open to me through Guilds); I think the latter is probably better, due to the movement bonus and the fact pikemen are both cheaper and better against the main threat of the era, but musketmen are better all-around defenders and counterattackers (behind collateral), in case anyone wants to make an argument for those. If anyone wants to make an argument for the Taj, Music, or Liberalism pushes I mentioned too, I'm open to hearing that as well.

ipecac Wrote:I've thought more and IMO you don't really need to attack as you have tech lead and a slight lead on land. If you can't get a sufficient large force in time before others get knights in large numbers too then it may be better not to risk being the first to attack, as the Guilds-romp strategy requires (relatively) secure borders, instead you might want to wait for for an opening. But if you can then go for it, of course.

Old Harry Wrote:As long as you are streaming units to the Miguelito front then you may be able to react to Mardoc attacking and only lose one or two cities while you gain more vs Miguelito. Also I'd guess Miguelito will accept peace and let you counter attack if Mardoc does try to hit you...

I love the juxtaposition of these quotes. And ...

Alert! Pitboss 25 spoiler!

Krill Wrote:In other words, if an axe rush puts you in a position to be counter rushed immediately afterwards, you should focus on holding what you have and playing safe. This applies at all stages of hte game, not just at the beginning. This is why you don't randomly attack one person that you tunnel vision on and ignore the fact that your units will be out of position and could be attacked by a third party.

Apparently Krill agrees with you, ipecac. Though he did basically tell me to go run roughshod over everyone's continental holdings a short while ago, so there's that, too.

Obviously I'm going to have to choose someone's advice at some point. I apologize to the person/people whose advice I eventually don't choose.

Now, back to the screenshot I just posted above. I had this zany thought - see, I wasn't able to explore all of Mardoc's lands due to our early war, but if the map follows its apparent pattern of vaguely-mirrored (not exact) resources, that should be Mardoc's only iron at the bottom there. What if I land/move units, including four workers and at least one two-mover, to the highlighted horse tile, out of his sight, then road it and the tile 1SE, declare war, move to his iron, and cut it - interrupting all his knight builds (what happens to the hammers?) and disrupting his ability to build up and intervene against me as I act elsewhere? It might even induce him to sign a peace treaty to give me 10 turns' free reign. Though this may be too complicated. I could also just use my stack against him, take the city, and cut his iron that way - but that does commit me to him as my target. And in either case, someone (Miguelitos?) might just gift him iron anyway. Well, that's just a random bit of spitballing for us to ponder on.

Here's the missing overview screenshot:




Builds screen -




- another set of five knights completed this turn (four whipped)! Another four should be ready to whip next turn. Two cities, the capital and Wormfang Shrine (southeast of island) can flat-out build them in three turns (sadly, I can't get it to two turns in the capital, despite the Bureaucracy bonus, until I grow it a couple more sizes). The other cities have to whip them; as usual with my empires at this stage of the game, I just don't have the hammers capacity to straight build anything top-of-the-line.

And, since it's turn 95 (A.D. 650, in PBEM 65 twirl), the graphs!




(If it's not clear, Mardoc's line is almost exactly paralleling Miguelitos' far brighter one. Remember they are/were both in Golden Age.)










C'mon, Mardoc, have your graph start spiking, so we can all start feeling paranoid, instead of everyone just at me! (#alreadyparanoidateveryone)

You know, whipping large, technologically-advanced armies is kinda therapeutic, if you suffer from paranoia (or excessive malevolence). Or just enjoy whipping people. [Redacted.]
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I hadn't thought about skipping construction - interesting idea for China! Presumably Taj is a high priority for miguelito? has philosophy fallen yet? if you can get research visibility on everyone then liberalism is a good path... I guess my gut is for engineering though if the next few turns will be warfare.

On Mardoc's iron - how many turns does tundra take to road on quick? I believe his knights would become HAs but I'm not certain... its a devious idea, I just wonder if you'd be better leting him eat alhazard?
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(April 2nd, 2015, 23:48)TheHumanHydra Wrote: Alert! Pitboss 25 spoiler!



Apparently Krill agrees with you, ipecac. Though he did basically tell me to go run roughshod over everyone's continental holdings a short while ago, so there's that, too.
That's the win condition, but not necessarily the best thing to attempt at this point of time tongue

Quote: Obviously I'm going to have to choose someone's advice at some point. I apologize to the person/people whose advice I eventually don't choose.
No worries. Just do what you think best.

Re: tech I think Engineering is best for the +1 movement alone even though Construction is a waste.
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Ok, I teched Construction this turn. Looks like Engineering should finish in two more turns.

I whipped four knights this turn, as projected, and set up to produce a whopping nine knights next turn. The other players appear to be starting to react, judging by their movements. Mardoc and Miguelito finished their Golden Ages, Miguelito switching back to Slavery (Mardoc didn't switch out of it), as well as producing a Great Scientist. Alhazard revolted to Hereditary Rule and Vassalage, and founded his 13th city, tying with Miguelito. I saw my first knight of Mardoc's, produced in Faraday.

I just hope I don't suddenly see longbows sprouting up everywhere, which I probably will. crazyeye popcorn
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(April 3rd, 2015, 12:41)ipecac Wrote:
(April 2nd, 2015, 23:48)TheHumanHydra Wrote: Alert! Pitboss 25 spoiler!

Apparently Krill agrees with you, ipecac. Though he did basically tell me to go run roughshod over everyone's continental holdings a short while ago, so there's that, too.
That's the win condition, but not necessarily the best thing to attempt at this point of time tongue

Touché.

(April 3rd, 2015, 12:41)ipecac Wrote:
Quote: Obviously I'm going to have to choose someone's advice at some point. I apologize to the person/people whose advice I eventually don't choose.
No worries. Just do what you think best.

Thanks. smile

Edit: I don't think I'm going to do that iron-cutting plan, at least not right now. Mostly because I didn't even think about it this turn, so didn't do anything to set it up. smoke It also seems a little too cute.
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