RtR mod 3.0.0.1 proposed change log

[Krill]

Other points: I'm thinking that making Liberalism a mandatory tech to research Scientific Method is going to help out with civic balance, but with the tech cost scaling I'm not concerned about it providing a huge buff to the free tech aspect of it.

That solves the issues with FS/Enviro/FR not being researched, and moves SP closer to being researched (as SP is the only effect on Communism worth researching beyond the first two bonuses).

So, to reiterate, this is what's discussed on civics:

Serfdom: +1 hammer from mines, +75% worker speed. Merdium cost, Feudalism
Emancipation: +1 commerce from cottage/hamlet/village, +1 hammer from windmill/watermill, +1 commerce from mines. Medium cost, Banking.

+2 free artist/scientist/merchant slots upon entering medieval and renaissance.

Mercantilism: +2 free specs, High cost, Nationalism.
Free Speech: +1 commerce from village, +3 commerce from Town, +15% gold in all cities, +100% culture in all cities, +100% improvement growth rate. Can cash rush. Medium cost, Liberalism.

All this is working within the model that nither Caste nor SP should change as they are the measuring sticks for the civics within those columns.

[RefSteel]

Can you chop peoples forests if you have OB with them?

No. At least in base BtS it is impossible to chop forests in rival territory via open borders.

[Cheater Hater]

One thing I've been thinking about while watching PB18: why are Commandos a good thing in general? It feels like it gives the attacker way too much of an advantage and greatly adds to the micro required in late game war. In addition, it punishes over-building roads way too much, even if you think that you shouldn't be over-building railroads. If you want Commandos to be always obtainable, but not able to be mass-produced, why not make it a GG-exclusive promotion? That also makes you have to balance your limited number of GGs between settling, Military Academies, Medics, Commandos, and generally strong units.

As much as you like your unpillagable improvements, it's going to be a disaster once someone has all their sources of coal/oil/uranium under villages/towns. Sure, it's a late game problem, but we've already seen how much late game resource distribution can ruin a game.

For the naval buildings, while I'm on the side that they should certainly be tested in SMEG more if they're going to come over at all (though I don't know how much testing has gone on in PB26 already, considering how backwards I am), why not just make it simple and just have the Harbor/Quay/Drydock? From what I saw you don't have the Shipyard in this iteration of the changelog, so why not just simplify things and have the same amount of buildings (even if removing the Customs House isn't that big of a deal)?

[Krill]

Can you chop peoples forests if you have OB with them?

No. At least in base BtS it is impossible to chop forests in rival territory via open borders.

Good to know. I do know that if you chop the forests then the forest preserve disappears so chopping your own forests has a penalty...but because of that I'm not going to implement that feature because it provides a simple way to spite an invading opponent.

One thing I've been thinking about while watching PB18: why are Commandos a good thing in general? It feels like it gives the attacker way too much of an advantage and greatly adds to the micro required in late game war. In addition, it punishes over-building roads way too much, even if you think that you shouldn't be over-building railroads. If you want Commandos to be always obtainable, but not able to be mass-produced, why not make it a GG-exclusive promotion? That also makes you have to balance your limited number of GGs between settling, Military Academies, Medics, Commandos, and generally strong units.

Commandos themselves provide a method of countering the increased production available in the late game, by forcing a defender to defend more cities (in a similar way that losing naval superiority does). However, linking it to the GG promotion doesn't help in this regard because then to few commandos would be available to cause this effect.

The aim is to make them available leaders other than AGG or CHM but still require a significant investment so that getting a second pump is really difficult and a third is impossible. AGG and CHM should not have them more easily accessible (however with CHM that get's a bit difficult to balance).

Commando needs the following amount of XP to be reached for different leaders (with D4 leading to Commando):

• Aggressive: 17XP
  
• Protective: 17XP
  
• Charismatic: 20XP
  
• PRO/CHM and AG/CHM (Churchill and Boudicca): 13XP

Each city can make 7XP with Barracks, Theocracy and Vassalage. Mounted units may have Stables but don't get free C1 nor can they take the D1 line so don't benefit as much, their costs are higher. That means that if the Military Academy provides free D1, then each leader needs to find 10XP in a single city to unlock Commando on units on building. Every player can build West Point for +5XP, lowering the cost down to 5XP still needed on the first city.

The only additional places to find the XP are on settled GG, Pentagon, or SoZ. SoZ and Pentagon would unlock with no further GG required, but would probably need 2 GG to unlock WP due to needing a level 5 unit and for Military Academy ().

Charismatic is where this all breaks down anyway, because they need 13 XP with Military Academy, which means only need 6XP anyway; 1 settled GG unlocks Commando in WP city and then need 3 more for the second Commando city. Given the lower threshold for the level 5 unit (13 XP) may not even need to add a GG to a unit to unlock WP. I think the best solution to that is to lower the XP for promotions down to -20%, that should only increase the XP needed for the fourth promotion to 14 from 13, and not affect the earlier promotions at 2, 4, and 8XP.

However, the Military Academy change doesn't affect Churchill or Boudicca provided it doesn't give XP. Keeping settled GG to 2XP is also fine: if that occurs then the Commando promotion is no easier to reach than before or them. That said, I do think that either increasing the settled GG output to 3XP, or giving the military academy +1XP is the right move because that doesn't increase the brokenness of Churchill or Bouddica. The settled GG is still the "right" move for them as they already have the free promotion, unless they want the production bonus.


tl;dr Military Academy giving D1, 1XP and production bonus, settled GG giving 2XP lowers threshold for none AGG and None CHM leaders so that with investment they can get 1 Commando pump but not more (2 settled GG and Military academy). Lowering CHM to need -20% XP for each production should increase the XP needed to access Commando to 14XP and not affect earlier promotions, requiring 1 settled GG and Military Academy. Churchill and Boudicca would need 1 settled GG for the first Commando city and then 4 settled GG for the second.

As much as you like your unpillagable improvements, it's going to be a disaster once someone has all their sources of coal/oil/uranium under villages/towns. Sure, it's a late game problem, but we've already seen how much late game resource distribution can ruin a game.

This should not be a problem, by making Towns access the resources they are on. Forts do it, so the code is already there, I believe it's just a bit of XML. It would only need to apply to coal, oil, aluminium and uranium. It would not affect the techs that enable the resource activation.

For the naval buildings, while I'm on the side that they should certainly be tested in SMEG more if they're going to come over at all (though I don't know how much testing has gone on in PB26 already, considering how backwards I am), why not just make it simple and just have the Harbor/Quay/Drydock? From what I saw you don't have the Shipyard in this iteration of the changelog, so why not just simplify things and have the same amount of buildings (even if removing the Customs House isn't that big of a deal)?

Fair points. Making it simpler does solve that issue, OTOH the techs needed are so far apart it may have somewhat unexpected consequences. I don't think removing the Customs House is helpful though.

[Commodore]

I think this is where the mod has crossed the uncanny valley; it's like plastic surgery...up to about 2.0.7.4 or so, it was making BtS look better, and some people certainly like the .6 Creative getting library implants, although I feel its made the trait lose some nice natural bounce. But I can't help but feel that 3.0.0.1 is veering into late-era Michael Jackson territory.

[Cheater Hater]

Using Fort code is a nice solution to the resource problem, though you need to make sure it applies to villages too.

If the techs are so far apart, why not just bring forward the Drydock? Where would you put it though--Machinery? You'd probably need to tone it down though.

[Krill]

TBH I'd rather just go with an implementation of the naval buildings that uses the minimum number of buildings, but provides an interesting strategic choice. If that means not using the Breakwater concept, then I'm fine with that.

I'm currently working night shifts which is why I feel like I've fallen off the face of the earth. I'm going to try and post a new change log over the weekend, but it's going to be stuck with the two major changes of including the quay and additional free specialist slots.

One question though, which I could do with feedback for: If Corp is changed to need EITHER Economics OR Liberalism, does making Fascism need EITHER Assembly Line OR Communism move Police State up too far? Right now I'm thinking it is an unnecessary change but again, discussion is good.

[Krill]

New proposed change log for 3.0.0.1:

Misc changes:

Capital city tile output: minimum of 2 food, 2 hammers, 1 commerce
Versailles: Cost: 500
Upon entering the Medieval era, all cities gain 2 artist, scientist and merchant specialist slots in addition to any other slots already available..
Upon entering the Renaissance era, all cities gain 2 artist, scientist and merchant specialist slots in addition to any other slots already available.

Heroic Epic changes:

Colosseum: +25% military production, +1 happy, +1 happy per 20% culture slider. Cost 120 hammers, requires Construction. +100% production with Charismatic.
Heroic Epic: Requires Barracks in city. +75% military production. Cost 150 hammers, +50% production with marble, requires Literature, Colosseum.

Greek Odeon: +25% military production, +1 XP for land units, +1 happy, +1 happy per 20% culture slider. Cost 120 hammers, requires Construction. +100% production with Charismatic.
Mayan Ball Court: +25% military production, +3 happy, +1 happy per 20% culture slider. Cost 120 hammers, requires Construction. +100% production with Charismatic.
Babylonian Garden: +25% military production, +2 health, +1 happy, +1 happy per 20% culture slider. Cost 120 hammers, requires Construction. +100% production with Charismatic.

Red Cross changes:

Hospitals: Free Medic 1 to units built in this city. Units in this heal an extra 10% per turn. +3 health.
Red Cross: Units built in this city gain a free march promotion

Naval buildings changes:

Harbour: +1 trade route. +1 health from crab/clam/fish. Cost 80 hammers. Requires Compass. +100% production with Expansive.

Custom house: +1 trade route. +50% trade route yield. Cost 120 hammers. Requires Corporation. +100% production with Imperialistic.

Quay: +1 commerce on sea tiles. Cost 80 hammers. Requires Compass. +100% production with Charismatic.

Dry dock: +50% production of naval units, +4XP for naval units. +1 unhealthiness. Cost 120 hammers. Requires Steel. +100% production with Aggressive.

Portuguese Feitoria: Customs House replacement. +1 commerce from water tiles. +1 trade route. +50% trade route yield. Cost 150 hammers. Requires Corporation. +100% production with Imperialistic.

Carthaginian Cothon: Harbour replacement. +1 trade route. +1 health from crab/clam/fish. Cost 60 hammers. Requires Compass. Mutually exclusive with Quay. +100% production with Expansive.

Dutch Dyke: unchanged. Levee replacement. +1 hammer from water, river tiles. Cost 180 hammers. Requires Steam Power.

Universities:

University: +25% research, 3 culture. Cost 150 hammers. Requires Library, Education. +100% production with Philosophical

Seowan: +40% research, 3 culture. Cost 150 hammers. Requires Library, Education. +100% production with Philosophical

Research Institute: +25% research, 3 culture, 1 scientist. Cost 150 hammers. Requires Library, Education. +100% production with Philosophical

Oxford University: Increase cost to 600H

Other Buildings:

Stele: Free Drill 2. +1 culture. Cost 30 hammers. Requires Mysticism. Obsoletes at Calendar or Gunpowder.

Castle: Obsoleted by Corporation

Citadel: Obsoleted by Corporation (to confirm: requires Engineering)

Commando/Drill changes:

Amphibious: requires D2 or C2
Blitz: requires D3 or C3
Charge: requires D1 or C1
March: requires D3 or C3 or M1
Commando: requires Combat 4 OR Drill 4. Only available on Armoured, Gunpowder, Mounted and Recon units. (ie not Melee, Archery units.)
Great General: When settled produces 2XP (no change).
Military Academy: Units built in this city gain a free Drill 1 promotion, +1XP. Requires Military Science, Great General.

Civic changes:

Universal Suffrage: +1 hammer from towns. Can rush buy with gold. Medium Cost. Requires Constitution.

Environmentalism: +1 gold per specialist. +1 commerce from farm, pasture. +2 commerce from Forest preserve. +3 health. Medium cost. Requires Corporation.

Serfdom: +1 hammer from mines, +75% worker speed. Medium cost, Feudalism
Emancipation: +1 commerce from cottage/hamlet/village, +1 hammer from windmill/watermill, +1 commerce from mines. Medium cost, Banking.

Mercantilism: +2 free specs, High cost, Nationalism.
Free Speech: +1 commerce from village, +3 commerce from Town, +15% gold in all cities, +100% culture in all cities, +100% improvement growth rate. Can cash rush. Medium cost, Liberalism.

Resource changes:

Aluminium: Revealed by Scientific Method

Tile changes:

Mine: +1 hammer from Chemistry. No longer gain +1 hammer from Replaceable Parts.
Quarry: +1 hammer from Chemistry. No longer gain +1 hammer from Replaceable Parts.
Lumber Mill: Available at Metal Casting. Requires forest. +1 hammer. +1 hammer with Chemistry. +1 hammer from rail road. +1 commerce from river tiles. Requires 5 worker turns.

Villages, Towns, are permanent and cannot be pillaged or improved over. Also provide access to Oil, Coal, Aluminium and Uranium

Unit changes:

Barbarian Animals: Wolf: unchanged.
Lion: Strength 1, 1 move.
Panther: Strength 1, 2 move, starts with woodsman 2 promotion
Bear: Strength 1, 1 move, +200% against melee units
Scout: +200% against barbarian animals.
work boat: cost 25, food hammer unit. Creates fishing net. Suicide on use. Does not require tech.
SAM Infantry: Lower interception chance to 70%

War chariot: Egyptian Unique Unit: chariot replacement: Strength 5. +100% attack against axemen, -25% attack against archers. Cost 30 hammers, require horse, Wheel.
Impi: Zulu unique unit: spearman replacement: Strength 4, 2 movement points. +100% against mounted units, -40% against archery units. Cost 25 hammers, requires Hunting, copper or iron.
Fast Worker: Works at 135% worker speed
Oromo Warrior: Starts with D1, 2 free strikes. Cost 80 hammers. Requires Gunpowder

Tech changes:

Palace: +9 commerce
The Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Fishing, Mining, Mysticism: cost reduced to 35 base beakers.
Sailing: Cost reduced to 60 base beakers
Tech cost scaling: Implement the tech cost scaling feature as per ToW. This changes Fishing to be a 5 turn tech on pretty much every normal speed map. Late game tech costs adjusted accordingly: check in game for alterations.
Starting techs are unchanged.

Divine Right: Cost lowered to 800
Fascism: Require [Military Science] AND [Assembly Line OR Communism]
Corporation: Requires [Representation] AND [Liberalism OR Economics]
Electricity: Requires [Liberalism] AND [Physics]
Industrialism: Requires [Electricity AND Economics] And [Assembly Line]

Trait changes:

Financial: +1 commerce on tiles that produce 3 commerce. +100% production of Bank.
Charismatic: +2 happy in all cities. +1 happy from Broadcast Towers. -20% XP required for promotions. +100% production of Colosseum, Quay.
Creative: +1 culture per city. +100% production of Library, Theatre, Observatory.
Imperialist: +50% production of settlers. +100% GG point generation. +100% production of Custom House

[Krill]

The only change that requires further DLL coding in this proposed mod version would be the additional specialist slots, tied either to tech era or to civics.

[Cheater Hater]

You forgot to remove mutual exclusivity from the Feitoria.

I'm confused; was there any change with the base University? Also, any particular reason you aren't bringing over the SMEG rebalancing for them?

For War Chariot/Impi: are they supposed to have different downsides (Archers vs archery units), and if not, which one is right?

Presumably the scout doesn't count as a melee unit? Otherwise I like the changes to the animals (especially since I still think that might have been part of my stunted growth in PB26)

Is the Palace being 9 commerce new? That feels like it's a noticeable difference combined with tech scaling, but I'm not sure.