(July 2nd, 2015, 15:46)Krill Wrote: I'd like it if someone redeveloped espionage as a purely passive system based on information. I'm just not sure where to start.
The limiting of free information avaiable is a pretty good way to start, I think. I'd also look at ways of making it an investment on its own, not one tied to a different investment (that basically means changing the courthouses giving espionage mechanic - perhaps make courthouses allow a spy specialist, but not give free espionage). Perhaps get rid of the Espionage points from the Palace too and make the palace enable a spy specialist instead (or something like that). So, if you want EP, you'll have to work for it (and it kind of limits the problem of the player that is considered the strongest always being the one that gets EP dumped on -> if your EPs aren't free, you'll use them for useful things, not just dump them somewhere).
And maybe get rid of the GSpy, make spy specialists not generate GPPoints, like citizens specialists. Then, you could tie Espionage to specialists from the get go, without being afraid of balance getting owned by some crazy fast GPs.
Just some ideas, probably no merit to them, but whatever.
It's not about making the changes ad hoc. The whole aim of the system has to be redesigned from the ground up, deciding what information needs to be available to aim for, if it's a competition between players, and how it interacts with the pre-existing systems already in game. Just deciding to remove Great Spies has zero bearing on any of that until the macro design is in place.
For example, right now we have 4 levels of information available, and they are achieved by passing a certain ratio of EP compared to each specific opponent. Is that what is wanted? Or do we want espionage to provide other effects?
It's basically like designin an entire new minigame but with those additional constraints it's so sodding hard I really do question just how practical it is.
Below are a list of civs that are affected in this change log ie university and Colosseum changes; it's essentially a codified list without too much to discuss that isn't already posted about. Below that are some suggested changes for other civs that are considered...various things, actually.
Civs:
Quote:Babylon: UB: Garden. Colosseum replacement. +25% military production, +2 health, +1 happy, +1 happy per 20% culture slider. Cost 120 hammers, requires Construction. +100% production with Charismatic.
UU: Bowman. Archer replacement. 3 Strength. +50% against melee. +30% defence against swordsmen. +50% city defence +25% hill defence. 1 free strike. Cost 25 hammers. Requires Archery.
Techs: Agriculture, The Wheel.
Carthage: UB: Cothon: Harbour replacement. +1 trade route. +1 health from crab/clam/fish. Cost 60 hammers. Requires Compass. +100% production with Expansive.
UU: Numidian Mercenary. Horse Archer replacement. 6 Strength. Starts with Combat 1. Can withdraw from combat (20% chance). Immune to first strikes. Flank attack against Catapults, Trebuchet. +50% attack against catapults. Does not receive defensive bonuses. Cost 50 hammers. Requires Horseback Riding, Archery, Horse.
UU: War Chariot: Chariot replacement. 5 strength. -25% against Archers. Cost 30 hammers. Requires The Wheel, Horse.
Techs: The Wheel, Agriculture.
Greece: UB: Odeon: Colosseum replacement. +25% military production, +1 XP for land units, +1 happy, +1 happy per 20% culture slider. Cost 120 hammers, requires Construction. +100% production with Charismatic.
Korea: UB: Seowan. University replacement. +40% beakers. +3 culture. Cost 150 hammers. Requires Education, Library. +100% production with Philosophical.
UU: Hwacha. Cata[pult replacement. 5 Strength. +50% against melee. Causes collateral damage (max 50%). Doesn’t recieve defensive bonuses. Can bombard enemy cities (-8%). Maximum 75% damage to enemy on attack. Immune to collateral from other seige units.
Techs: Mining, Agriculture.
Maya: UB: Ball Court. Colosseum replacement. +25% military production, +3 happy, +1 happy per 20% culture slider. Cost 120 hammers, requires Construction. +100% production with Charismatic.
Quote:America: UB: Armoury: Barracks replacement. +2XP to melee units. +3XP to land units. +1 culture. Cost 60 hammers. +100% production by Aggressive.
UU: Ballistaphant: War Elephant replacement. 7 Strength. Always targets mounted units first outside cities. +50% against mounted. Does not receive defensive bonuses. Cost 60 hammers. Requires Construction, Horseback Riding, Ivory.
Mongolia: UB: Ger. Stable replacement. +2XP to land units. +2XP to mounted units. Cost 60 hammers. Requires Horseback Riding. Obsoletes at Gunpowder. +100% production with Aggressive.
UU: Keshik. Horse Archer replacement. Strength 6. +1 free strike. Can withdraw from combat (20% chance). Immune to first strikes. Flank attack against Catapults, Trebuchet. +50% attack against catapults.Ignores terrain movement costs. Does not receive defensive bonuses. Cost 50 hammers. Requires Horseback Riding, Archery, Horse.
Techs: Hunting, the Wheel.
Thoughts? The bolded items in the second list are the buffs/nerfs.
(July 2nd, 2015, 17:22)Krill Wrote: Below are a list of civs that are affected in this change log ie university and Colosseum changes; it's essentially a codified list without too much to discuss that isn't already posted about. Below that are some suggested changes for other civs that are considered...various things, actually.
Civs:
Quote:Babylon: UB: Garden. Colosseum replacement. +25% military production, +2 health, +1 happy, +1 happy per 20% culture slider. Cost 120 hammers, requires Construction. +100% production with Charismatic.
UU: Bowman. Archer replacement. 3 Strength. +50% against melee. +30% defence against swordsmen. +50% city defence +25% hill defence. 1 free strike. Cost 25 hammers. Requires Archery.
Techs: Agriculture, The Wheel.
Carthage: UB: Cothon: Harbour replacement. +1 trade route. +1 health from crab/clam/fish. Cost 60 hammers. Requires Compass. +100% production with Expansive.
UU: Numidian Mercenary. Horse Archer replacement. 6 Strength. Starts with Combat 1. Can withdraw from combat (20% chance). Immune to first strikes. Flank attack against Catapults, Trebuchet. +50% attack against catapults. Does not receive defensive bonuses. Cost 50 hammers. Requires Horseback Riding, Archery, Horse.
UU: War Chariot: Chariot replacement. 5 strength. -25% against Archers. Cost 30 hammers. Requires The Wheel, Horse.
Techs: The Wheel, Agriculture.
Greece: UB: Odeon: Colosseum replacement. +25% military production, +1 XP for land units, +1 happy, +1 happy per 20% culture slider. Cost 120 hammers, requires Construction. +100% production with Charismatic.
Korea: UB: Seowan. University replacement. +40% beakers. +3 culture. Cost 150 hammers. Requires Education, Library. +100% production with Philosophical.
UU: Hwacha. Cata[pult replacement. 5 Strength. +50% against melee. Causes collateral damage (max 50%). Doesn’t recieve defensive bonuses. Can bombard enemy cities (-8%). Maximum 75% damage to enemy on attack. Immune to collateral from other seige units.
Techs: Mining, Agriculture.
Maya: UB: Ball Court. Colosseum replacement. +25% military production, +3 happy, +1 happy per 20% culture slider. Cost 120 hammers, requires Construction. +100% production with Charismatic.
Quote:America: UB: Armoury: Barracks replacement. +2XP to melee units. +3XP to land units. +1 culture. Cost 60 hammers. +100% production by Aggressive.
UU: Ballistaphant: War Elephant replacement. 7 Strength. Always targets mounted units first outside cities. +50% against mounted. Does not receive defensive bonuses. Cost 60 hammers. Requires Construction, Horseback Riding, Ivory.
Mongolia: UB: Ger. Stable replacement. +2XP to land units. +2XP to mounted units. Cost 60 hammers. Requires Horseback Riding. Obsoletes at Gunpowder. +100% production with Aggressive.
UU: Keshik. Horse Archer replacement. Strength 6. +1 free strike. Can withdraw from combat (20% chance). Immune to first strikes. Flank attack against Catapults, Trebuchet. +50% attack against catapults.Ignores terrain movement costs. Does not receive defensive bonuses. Cost 50 hammers. Requires Horseback Riding, Archery, Horse.
Techs: Hunting, the Wheel.
Thoughts? The bolded items in the second list are the buffs/nerfs.
Haven't looked at it that closely, but how hard would it be to only obsolete the land unit XP part of the Ger at Gunpowder? I don't like Mongolia having drastically weaker Cavs/Cuirs.
I've figured an easy way to solve that issue for Mongolia.
Change Commando so that it can't be taken by Melee or Archery units. This change is actually necessary to solve a few issues but it doesn't have a real downside IMO.
Change ger to give 2XP to melee, archery and siege units, and 4XP to mounted, and obsolete at nomrla tech.
A couple of random points. Apologies that I won't be able to post in more detail right now.
- I think the scout/map changes are good. I think a game type where players have to take the inititive in scouting is great. On that note, I've always wanted to try an "accellerated start" game where the player starts with a worker, a bonus tech, and their 4th ring revealed. (specific BFCs would be necessary for balance) Any scouting beyond that would be the responsiblity of the player!
- Was it even possible to take Commando on a melee or archery unit? Commando is only unlocked with MS, right?
- I urge you to be cautious with some of the SMEG mod changes, specifically the Colloseum change, at least until the test game is done. I like a lot of the SMEG mod changes but I hope its clear by now that some of them are not balanced so well. My experience is the Colloseum is extraordinarily powerful the way it is right now. The Maya and Greeks may become the new Zulu and Inca. However, it could be that is fine, as RtR has a lot less ways to get huge hammers in the classical/medieval eras compared to SMEG. I'll try to provide some better feedback based on some of my past cities in this era when I get a chance.
- The American UB seems very strong... Amphibious swords pre-Vassalage is extremely scary. Well, maybe it gets someone to pick them, and it doesn't synergize with the UU, so maybe its fine. Also, Aggressive America seems like it should be a thing...
- Mongolia's UB has a similar issue as America's, but is better? I guess America can be a bigger bully in the ancient era to compensate for weaker Knights? The question is whether anyone would pick America over Mongolia the way it is now.
- Japan, Khmer, Ethiopia changes seem good. We still haven't seen anyone do Exp Khmer, although the idea comes up all the time in the picking phase. Maybe we'll finally get to see if its broken or not.
- I'm not sure what to do about espionage either, but I think an important thing to consider is whether courthouses should continue to generate free EP. This is a big reason why Org is considered the best trait in RtR right now, I think.
(July 3rd, 2015, 17:39)GermanJoey Wrote: A couple of random points. Apologies that I won't be able to post in more detail right now.
- I think the scout/map changes are good. I think a game type where players have to take the inititive in scouting is great. On that note, I've always wanted to try an "accellerated start" game where the player starts with a worker, a bonus tech, and their 4th ring revealed. (specific BFCs would be necessary for balance) Any scouting beyond that would be the responsiblity of the player!
Play Classical.
Quote:- Was it even possible to take Commando on a melee or archery unit? Commando is only unlocked with MS, right?
Yes it is possible if you beeline MS, stockpile Commando maces and then upgrade them after getting Rifling. I'm just not going to go down that possible route and remove it without really upsetting anything.
Quote:- I urge you to be cautious with some of the SMEG mod changes, specifically the Colloseum change, at least until the test game is done. I like a lot of the SMEG mod changes but I hope its clear by now that some of them are not balanced so well. My experience is the Colloseum is extraordinarily powerful the way it is right now. The Maya and Greeks may become the new Zulu and Inca. However, it could be that is fine, as RtR has a lot less ways to get huge hammers in the classical/medieval eras compared to SMEG. I'll try to provide some better feedback based on some of my past cities in this era when I get a chance.
I'm pretty sure that it's the hammer changes in SMEG that really breaks things and not the %age multiplier itself. But just say the word and I'll move the Colosseum back to Engineering, or even Machinery (preferably Engineering). With the corresponding decoupling from HE.
I do think the cost increase to 120 hammers helps limit the benefits a bit.
Quote:- The American UB seems very strong... Amphibious swords pre-Vassalage is extremely scary. Well, maybe it gets someone to pick them, and it doesn't synergize with the UU, so maybe its fine. Also, Aggressive America seems like it should be a thing...
1XP UB are pretty junky because they don't help to get the next promotion nor do they help to unlock second promotion without techs you get anyway (looking at you Greece). 2XP UB have that as the main strength but do put much more pressure on Commando ease of production due to lowering GG requirements. Ergo XP on the classes that can't get Commando, or obsoletes before it can be applied to units that can be prebuilt and wait for Commando be built available are probably the only place it can occur.
America I'm concerned about getting CR2 too easily and being uncounterable in ancient era warfare. 2XP to Archery units is more obnoxious (G2 archers are stupid, but then so are W2 axes). I'm thinking that +2XP to mounted is probably wiser than +2XP to melee.
Quote:- Mongolia's UB has a similar issue as America's, but is better? I guess America can be a bigger bully in the ancient era to compensate for weaker Knights? The question is whether anyone would pick America over Mongolia the way it is now.
Explained above, but Stables are still only built after barracks with the sole exception of Charistmatic before Gunpowder. Also HBR is classical so yeah, it doesn't have that large early game impact. Main advantage is don't have to run Vassalage (not sure that's a great early advantage) or Theocracy (now that's a beaker saver).
Quote:- Japan, Khmer, Ethiopia changes seem good. We still haven't seen anyone do Exp Khmer, although the idea comes up all the time in the picking phase. Maybe we'll finally get to see if its broken or not.
I think after PB26 there may be a bit better understanding of what the +1fpt is like.
Quote:- I'm not sure what to do about espionage either, but I think an important thing to consider is whether courthouses should continue to generate free EP. This is a big reason why Org is considered the best trait in RtR right now, I think.
Are you saying to remove the espionage slider completely and to remove the espionage points from the court house?
Now that would be interesting, especially if the demographics were made "free"
(July 3rd, 2015, 18:08)Krill Wrote: Play Classical.
Heh, I don't want to play Classical, I want to play Ancient starts... I just hate logging into the game for two straight weeks, moving my scout and pressing end turn. When I start a game, I want to get to the game! I dunno, its like... I like, cooking, right? But, every time I cook a meal I don't want to have to fire up a pottery wheel and make new plates and bowls to use, I just want to get to cooking!
Quote:I'm pretty sure that it's the hammer changes in SMEG that really breaks things and not the %age multiplier itself. But just say the word and I'll move the Colosseum back to Engineering, or even Machinery (preferably Engineering). With the corresponding decoupling from HE.
I do think the cost increase to 120 hammers helps limit the benefits a bit.
That is true, I didn't realize you made it 120 hammers now. That makes a huge difference I think. And yeah, its tough to separate all the +hammer and +% stuff from each other in SMEG, and the former is a huge problem... although the former combined with the latter is how things get really broken. For RtR, I think this Colosseum is probably fine for the classical/medieval eras, thinking about it more, as an additional 120 hammer build on top of a forge (and maybe also an HE) means that a city will have to make a serious tradeoff for more units later vs more units right now. However, it would make classical-era warfare much more definitive for civs that want to beeline a military route, as they should now be able to gain enough of a production advantage to make up for the defender's better logistics. I still think its an extremely good trait building and that Cha Greece and Cha Maya are gonna be fucking nuts.
Another concern I have is that by the end of the Medieval era, I think this Colosseum will be something you want to have in every city... same kinda deal with how you want a Granary/Barracks/Forge in every unit pump, now it'll be Granary/Barracks/Forge/Colosseum. Thus, essentially lowers the cost of all Ren-era and early Industrial-era units by 1/1.25 - 1/1.5 = 13.3%. (only 5.3% in the age of factories). Is that a big deal? I think so, especially for ships. Would it be possible to make the production bonus only apply to melee, archery, mounted, and wooden ships? (Ideally, it wouldn't apply to ships at all) I think it'd be easier to control the balance like that, because if it is too weak like this you can always cheapen the building back down to 80h.
Quote:
Quote:- The American UB seems very strong... Amphibious swords pre-Vassalage is extremely scary. Well, maybe it gets someone to pick them, and it doesn't synergize with the UU, so maybe its fine. Also, Aggressive America seems like it should be a thing...
1XP UB are pretty junky because they don't help to get the next promotion nor do they help to unlock second promotion without techs you get anyway (looking at you Greece). 2XP UB have that as the main strength but do put much more pressure on Commando ease of production due to lowering GG requirements. Ergo XP on the classes that can't get Commando, or obsoletes before it can be applied to units that can be prebuilt and wait for Commando be built available are probably the only place it can occur.
America I'm concerned about getting CR2 too easily and being uncounterable in ancient era warfare. 2XP to Archery units is more obnoxious (G2 archers are stupid, but then so are W2 axes). I'm thinking that +2XP to mounted is probably wiser than +2XP to melee.
Explained above, but Stables are still only built after barracks with the sole exception of Charistmatic before Gunpowder. Also HBR is classical so yeah, it doesn't have that large early game impact. Main advantage is don't have to run Vassalage (not sure that's a great early advantage) or Theocracy (now that's a beaker saver).
These are good points, but one thing I want to point out re: Vassalage + Swords is that oftentimes you only have a very small window where you both have Vassalage and can produce Swords, because Swords obsolete once you can build Maces. That can make it tricky to actually build a lot of 5xp swords because you're probably going to use your early golden age to swap into Bureau. So, unless you have a goofy situation like PB22 Carthage, you're probably only going to get 5 turns worth of Vassalage to pump swords. 5xp swords are REALLY good, such efficient hammer builds that they can effective units even into the age of rifles... and of course, then the survivors upgrade into the sickest infantries, 320 gold that you're thrilled you get a chance to spend. America would be able to stockpile the hell out of these things without needing to play around awkwardly with their GA or Bureau timing... on top of all the other advantages of having +2 promos (a small forking stack of G2s in the ancient era would be another super broken option), it just seems too good to me.
I think your idea of a barracks that gives +2 XP to mounted is much better. You'd get 5xp chariots for instant sentries and great barb controllers, and you'd be able to produce 5XP Horchers and WE without needing to build stables first. It'd be a good UB even for a non-Agg civ too, because for 60 hammers it would essentially get them a barracks + stables.
Quote:Are you saying to remove the espionage slider completely and to remove the espionage points from the court house?
Now that would be interesting, especially if the demographics were made "free"
I wasn't, but actually, that seems like a very good idea, especially with demos being free... hell, get rid of all the static +ept, not only from the CH but from the Jail, SB, and IA too (but leave their big multipliers and spy slots; leave the EP from the palace). You know what? Get rid of the EP slider too, and let EP only generate through spy specialists. This way, players could only get mass EP by choosing to spend citizens on it. That is *WAY* more thematic, first of all, but it'd be a lot easier to balance the mission costs. (you'd have to drastically cheapen the mission costs, of course).
On phone so I'll be brief. Not sure of those Colosseum changes being possible purely in XML but it can be made to only affect land units and be made to obsolete at Rifling which is about the same thing.
America change is fine to just be for mounted.
Espionage I'd want to think about but missions not being implemented. This does sound promising though.
I don't really understand what the complaint re: first two weeks is. Those 2 weeks scouting and tech choices define how games play out. I mean I understand the impatience but not anything else.
